posted May 07, 2001 09:47 PM
HUH!...haven't been here for a while...I have a question for "been there" to whom do you give credit for your child? Do you not know there is a God to thank for that baby? Do you think you are so righteous that you created life itself? I'm not trying to get on a religious kick with anyone, but how can you not be thankful to someone besides yourself for what you have? Even if you don't think it is much. It's because you're not thankful that you don't realize you have more than some.
In response to women's lib...what a joke! Don't get me started. There should be another topic for that alone!! But you're right that you don't see men subjecting them selves to meanial phone sex (or physic) jobs to earn a living. Why should we? Oh yeah..somebody has to take care of the kids. What was that about women's lib? Anyway, to all of you who think it can't get any worse, think about regret. It's something we won't feel till much later in life, but it'll be caused by what we do today. Be sure of yourselves. For your kids' sake.
quote:Originally posted by beamjl: HUH!...haven't been here for a while...I have a question for "been there" to whom do you give credit for your child? Do you not know there is a God to thank for that baby? Do you think you are so righteous that you created life itself? I'm not trying to get on a religious kick with anyone, but how can you not be thankful to someone besides yourself for what you have? Even if you don't think it is much. It's because you're not thankful that you don't realize you have more than some.
In response to women's lib...what a joke! Don't get me started. There should be another topic for that alone!! But you're right that you don't see men subjecting them selves to meanial phone sex (or physic) jobs to earn a living. Why should we? Oh yeah..somebody has to take care of the kids. What was that about women's lib? Anyway, to all of you who think it can't get any worse, think about regret. It's something we won't feel till much later in life, but it'll be caused by what we do today. Be sure of yourselves. For your kids' sake.
quote:Originally posted by pyh1: Phone sex is not a job that any person should do. Especially if you have children and are trying to to be a role model of what a decent woman should be. Money IS NOT everything. Children can and will overhear when you are not aware. It is disrespectful to your husband and your self.
Also the phone sex industry destroys family, considering the person who is calling he or she is not a very safe rational person. With technology the way it is today, don't think that they can't trace your call.
Also, ponder this question would you want your daughter being a phone sex operator when she is older or better yet would you want her or your son calling that line when they get older? I believe it would be a unanimous NO!
Suppose your neighbor calls the number and recognizes your voice. I don't think this industry should even exist and definetly not for a MOM.
Who said I do it just for the money? My children do not know what I do and no they will not find out. Two same for my neighbors. Three no they cant trace my call because I am not calling anyone. I am being called through a 900# that is scrambled into a server. Then it calls me and tells me what the guy is looking for. If you don't know what your talking about butt out!
posted May 08, 2001 12:52 PM
At least she isn't out on the street where she could get hurt, killed, or some disease that will leave her kids without a mother. True, she could probably get a "real" job, but she's probably making a lot more money. If the man is willing to pay, why not talk?
posted May 08, 2001 01:30 PM
OK so tell us, if it's not "just for the money" what is it for? Do you really get some kind of personal satisfaction out of it? Does it make you feel intelligent? Just wondering cause I don't get it!
quote:Originally posted by a mom: Who said I do it just for the money? My children do not know what I do and no they will not find out. Two same for my neighbors. If you don't know what your talking about butt out!
If you don't do it just for the money, what do you do it for? Phone sex is not a service that helps mankind. Let's be honest here - the reason most of us work is to make money. That's my primary reason for having my home-based business (selling toys). I can't imagine why anyone would want a "job" as degrading as phone sex operator, other than a desparate attempt to make money. Why don't your children and neighbors know what you do? Doesn't the fact that you feel compelled to hide your job speak volumes about how inappropriate it is? Finally, this question was posted asking for opinions. No one should be told to "butt out" because their opinion is different from yours. We're not here to attack each other, but to express our opinions on a topic. We are not all going to agree.
posted May 09, 2001 06:42 PM
I believe that we should exhibit integrity in every walk of our life. Where does one draw the line? If phone sex is ok is cyber sex. Many friends have shared with me their frustrations, feelings of betrayal and hurt because their husbands were involved in those items or pornography. Ask yourself this 'How would I feel if I found out my husband or boyfriend were involved in this?'
It takes their affections away from where it should be and when that happens the relationship can slip away very quickly.
Do you want to be apart of that? I would much rather teach a man how to turn his affections on to his wife by teaching him what true love making really is...and it is not phone sex. It is admiration, affection, intimacy. It does not start in the bedroom before you fall asleep at night but in the morning when they wake up by getting her coffee, putting toothpaste on her brush, starting her shower and it continues throughout the day.
Ok time to get off my soap box. Maybe that is another subject.
posted May 09, 2001 10:25 PM
I do fetish calls.... I do alot of domination and I personally dont " get off" on it. I do burry alot of frustation that I used to use to "nag" at hubby with. Or fuss at the kids for the drinks they just spilled when I mopped 5 minutes ago. There are wives that have their husbands call I talk to wives and husbands about fetishes. I had a wife call and hand her hubby the phone after talking to me. She said she could not do that for him.
posted May 11, 2001 02:57 PM
The question was: Are there Jobs a work-at-home mom shouldn't do?
Let me first state that I intend to leave religion out of this. I think I can just stick to facts and make the same point. I also want to make it clear that I am a woman, but that does not prevent me from learning the facts about human sexuality, or communicating those facts to others in an appropriate way. And I do know the facts. What I don't know by my own expereince, I have heard from first hand accounts and/or qualified professionals.
I find it interesting that several women have justified being phone actresses by refering to wrongs recieved from men. Here are some of the things they say: My husband left me with kids to feed. I was mistreated/abused as a child. I am pregnant, unmarried, and don't have any other income.
Does that justify making a nice income on phone sex? (Let's not kid ourselves, the one phone service multitudes of men will pay for by the minute is sexual stimulation and/or gratification.)
Let's consider some facts. Phone sex is in the same continuum as cybersex, nudity in movies, tittilating literature, and so on. It varies only in degrees from finding johns on the streets. It is still about the same core proposition; the buying and selling of sex. Whether it is done by a live show, by physical contact, by intercourse, by printed words, by printed images, by audio, by any other kind of technology or media, it is sex for hire. I know the ladies who do it will deny it, but you know it is true.
Another fact: the buying and selling of sex is intricately, shall we say, intimately, related to abuse of women and children. Again, people who make money off the sex biz will deny it, but the research proves otherwise. You can find out for yourself if you spend some time in the courtrooms, or observe events in a jail, or talk to women in a shelter, or have a frank conversation with a mental health professional or gynecologist. I won't debate which one leads to the other, but men who buy sex are also men who abuse sex partners and their children. Most likely, these two behavior patterns feed off each other.
Therefore, it logically follows that women who sell sex participate in a culture the denigrates women, that allows men to procreate without providing, that encourages men to cheat on wives, beat lovers, slap babies for crying, molest little girls and/or little boys,and so on. And, it equally follows, that women who sell sex, even by telephone converstations, to make money to replace the income of a good husband, or to get revenge on a molester, are keeping the cycle going.
Even the example of a woman who was expected to serve coffee in meetings just be cause she was female, and to help male associates remember to send flowers to thier wives and lovers, fits this. That is less exploitive than making a baby and running away, or keeping a wife in terror of the next beating, but it is still exploitive. However, there are ways to tactfully inform employers that some things are too demeaning.
Men are sometimes asked to do immoral or unethical things, like acting as pimp, or concealing a theft, or looking the other way on sexual harrasment. No one is obligated to violate conscience to keep a job. (I know about this, too -- my husband's first career was submarined by a supervisor who was using the office for some dubious enterprises.)
No matter how you slice it, promoting a system of men exploiting women and children is immoral.
It has been observed that "those calling it immoral are those who don't have to do without anything." I have experience in doing without. By my experience, I have the authority to assert, there are other ways to provide for children. In the USA, there are other ways. (If anyone needs some practical ideas on how to live well on a pittance, I'll gladly share some of my favorite resources.)
But I do not feel hatred or contempt for women who sell sex solely to provide for thier children. That *is* better than sleeping around and neglecting the children. I have a history of working to improve the situation of unwed mothers, children without supportive fathers, abused women, and so on. Amoung other things, I have worked in a program that enabled women fleeing from pimps. When push comes to shove, I'm for the woman, and the children. Again, if anyone wants to know how to live better on less money, I have practical ideas anyone can implement.
On the other hand, some of the women I have known who conducted sexually tittilation acts for pay were not working to have food anc clothes for their children. They were attracted to having a classy apartment, a closet full of designer clothes, and dining on lobster and caviar. Those are not needs, they are wants. I've fed my family on potatoes, onions, beans, and over-ripe cucumbers, rather than go along with exploitation.
So, I conclude, yes, there are jobs moms at home should not do. Selling sex is even more degrading than pyramid schemes. It encourages the exploitative men to further abuses. The woman who thinks she is in control cannot actually know that her participation will not egg a man on to cheat on her neighbor, kidnap her best friend, divorce or abandon her sister, beat her mother, molest her child, or rape her own self. Tolerating sexploitation enables the abusive men to continue, to refuse to seek help for thier antisocial behavior.
Now, for some other facts. Christians are forbidden to either buy or sell sex, to engage in sex with anyone but his/her lawful spouse, to engage even within marriage in degrading acts, to profit by the buying and selling of sex, to enslave anyone, or to condone trade in sex acts or human lives. I do not say this to impose Christianity on those who do not adhere to it, or to judge any person who claims to be a Christian, but just a statement of what Christians believe.
By the way, Christianity is NOT a religion. It is a lifestyle based on well-documented historic events and on a continuous, and therefore contemporary, stream of "soft" or experiential evidence. No other system of belief, be it a religion or a philosophy, or whatever, is factual, logical, and fully compatible with reality; nothing else confronts the causes of human suffering as hard-headedly. Nothing else I've ever seen, heard, or read about, is more compatible with the quest to end suffering.
That, too, is something I know by research and by first-hand accounts, not by some vague disembodied emotional experience.
quote:Another fact: the buying and selling of sex is intricately, shall we say, intimately, related to abuse of women and children. Again, people who make money off the sex biz will deny it, but the research proves otherwise. You can find out for yourself if you spend some time in the courtrooms, or observe events in a jail, or talk to women in a shelter, or have a frank conversation with a mental health professional or gynecologist. I won't debate which one leads to the other, but men who buy sex are also men who abuse sex partners and their children. Most likely, these two behavior patterns feed off each other.
Men who buy sex or look at porn do NOT always beat their partners and children. Talk about generalizations!!!
Let's break it down.
Because of the FCC there are things that one cannot say over the phone. Period. each operator needs to decide: Are you providing a sexually stimulating environment or comfort? Comfort meaning companionship. Are you talking dirty or telling him a woman's point of view?
Let me ask you this: Have you ever had a "crush" on an actor or singer? Even as a teen? Even married, technically if you have those feelings that is a form of adultery. Am I to blame my partner because while it is proven men think about sex every 14 seconds, he may not think of me each time? And how many of you have seen the Fed Ex guy and thought to yourself "Wow!".
It is a fine line you are drawing in the ground. Sex is a physical act, not a mental one.
posted May 11, 2001 10:53 PM
Sex should be an emotional act. While it is a physical action, to say there is nothing mental about it, is possibly a reflection of something much deeper. If it were just a physical act, like eating ice cream, why would anyone care who they were eating it with? It is definately more than a physical act. Except to those who choose to exploit or be exploited. Then they have to keep telling themselves that it's just "a physical act". How sad.
posted May 12, 2001 11:08 AM
Sex is definitely not just a physical act, but mental and emotional as well. Even if one can mentally detach oneself during the physical act, phone sex is most assuredly a mental act of sex. ANY sex, mental, physical, emotional, outside of marriage is adultery. If you are not married and commit such acts, it is still adultery. You are cheating your future spouse, and yourself. Sex is a privilege meant to be share between two people who are united by God in the Holy union of marriage. Period. Any other indulgence in sex is wrong.
posted May 16, 2001 10:10 AM
Well, I read through this whole thread, and I'm only going to state my opinions on some of the stuff I feel.
First of all, someone mentioned that "God" would rather have someone have phone sex than actually sleep with someone else. I disagree. God would rather one do neither of the two. God does not promote some sins as a little less than others. (Which means I am as horrible a sinner as anyone else here in God's eyes, and everyone else here is as loved by God as I am.) In fact, God states that he RATHER one cut of his/her arm if it is causing them to sin, rather than sin.
One way to look at that would be that God would rather you trust on him even when you family needs food than to sin to get money for food. (I'm saying right now that phone sex is sin...that's already been said elseware, I'm adressing the questions people had regarding how one could let their family starve...). Also, "letting" your family starve is not a sin by what I understand sin to be, if you are doing all you "rightfully" can to provide for them.
Two, the way I believe, my children (when I have them) aren't mine - they are God's. I am responsable for raising them and teaching them about God, but He gave them to me, and I dedicate them back to Him, and He is the ultimate provider of their needs...most of which will be met through me and their father, but the most important of which will only be met by Him. Looking at it this way, I have to trust that if we don't have any money, and we've done all we can without doing things God says are wrong, then it's HIS responsability to take care of us, not mine to take matters into my own hands.
Three, for examples of stories I believe to be true, look at Moses' mother....she left him in the river, hoping he would be found by someone who would take pity on him. But what if a soldier had found him insted of the princess? He could have died just the same as if she hadn't hid him...was she a terrible mother for placing her son in danger? Or take Shadrack, Meshek, and Abednigo...they refused to bow down to an idol because they thought it was wrong...and they not only lost their jobs, but their were sentenced to death. God saved them. Same goes for Daniel. I dare say it wasn't in these peoples best interests to say "NO" to what they thought was wrong, but God delivered them. Does God always make miracles happen for everyone who trusts in Him? Not always. Do good people die, and bad people thrive? Yes. Do I know why? No. But I believe I have to trust Him anyway. Even though I don't understand.
Four, JennLA_Austin was describing that she went through hell for a time and no longer believes in God. I, too, feel for you Jenn. I don't want to imagine your pain, but I wish I could share it with you if it would help you. I wish we could be friends. And I want to let you know that Jesus loves you and He'd rather die than live without you, he'd rather go through hell than to go to heaven without you...both of which he literally did.
And lastly, I know my "religion" isn't the only one out there...but my most other religions, I'm still okay. But if "my religion" is right, and they are wrong...then a lot of people are in trouble.
I don't want to condemn anyone, or tell anyone they should quit your job. These are my opinions, my beliefs. I am open to discussion and you can feel free to email me at [email protected] if you have any questions or just want to talk.
"As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord..."
posted May 21, 2001 12:54 AM
When I have sex with my husband its physical emotional and mental. When I talk to guys its not any of those. When I write articals for mags It isnt mental. Its fantasy make believe... I dont try to picture the men who will read it or the guy that I am talking too. Most of the time I set the phone down and let them do most of the talking.
God has no preference as to how or if I sin. God is more worried about where my heart is. I have yet to read it in the bible where phone sex and mental fantasy is a sin. Sleeping with other men besides my husband is. I know the differance.
posted May 28, 2001 12:22 AM
Let me say something here -- I am an operator and have been one for several years now. This thread has been interesting, mainly to watch how women react to something they don't know anything about, and to see how harshly they judge one another, especially in the name of religion. What differentiates cybersex from phone sex, or even from masturbation with Playboy, Penthouse, or any other type of porn? Who sets the "rules" to this? According to most religions masturbation is a sin, yet we know that "everybody does it".
Is it cheating when your husbands masturbate? Do you not think they have fantasies about other women? Men are paying for a service, they dial the number, do their own thing, and hang up forgetting about it an hour later. Technically, there is NO need for phone sex because men are masturbating daily anyway. A phone sex operator doesn't create a sex addict... just like alcohol doesn't create an alcoholic.
Let's stop suspecting men who call of being derranged addicted perverts. The men who call are lawyers, cops, ministers, doctors, dentists, teachers, and counselors. 99% are nice normal guys who may also be good husbands and fathers. I know this for fact, because *I* talk to the callers. Spend a day on my phone sometime, and listen to what men have to say about women.
And let's get this clear too, the adult industry contributing to the abuse of women is NOT fact, it's a THEORY. To be totally honest, I think the Bible degrades women more than phone sex does. Religion has put women down for centuries and started lots of wars. I don't think anyone has ever been slaughtered in the name of "phone sex" but they have in God's name.
Yes, I offer dirty words for hire -- and I am proud of it. What do I get out of doing this job? I get satisfaction!!! I have husbands tell me they call because they are tempted to cheat but know that phone sex is smarter. Some days I listen to confessions. I get satisfaction from the guy who is handicapped and never really had a woman pay any attention to him before. I get satisfaction talking to guy who just wants some advice on problems in his relationship. I get satisfaction from making a person feel special and I LIKE the guys who call. I get a lot of happiness from this job. I get to meet people (and YES women call too) who I would not normally meet, from all over the world. I get to engage in conversations with lawyers, doctors, cops, dentists, actors, radio personalities, bank managers, and etc. Does it make me feel important? YES -- because I know what the job really is about, I know who I am talking to, and why. I know I am providing a service for men who want it. There are not generalities with the men who call, each one calls for a different reason. All the judgements you ladies are making come from NO experience, just assumptions and opinions you formed without real knowledge. It seems the popular view is that there is some "emotional" involvement with callers. I laughed outloud when I read someone's comment about "some vague disembodied emotional experience". It is common sense that women view sex that way.... not men. Women are the ones who get trapped in the "sex is intimacy" thing, men do not, and have never viewed it that way. Men are quite capable of having sex without it being emotional, just ask a man and he'll tell you himself.
Further -- let me tell you what the callers say. They feel that their wives and girlfriends are silly for making a big deal out of porn and phone sex. They all know YOU view it as cheating, but they also know that the majority of you do not know what phone sex really is or WHY they like it. I have many callers with enlightened wives who DO know their husbands call, and prefer it to them going off and cheating for real. I know I sure do. If my partner called a phone sex service -- I'd laugh and get over it. Afterall, words only have power when you allow them to. Someone saying dirty words does not change emotions, or induce them either. It's like listening to an erotic story. Women read romance novels and watch romantic movies. Why? The fantasy. Some of those novels are as graphic as a phone sex call, and where do think an actress gets her scripts?
You can keep on beating up the women who do this for a living now. Go on, keep using their relationships, their children, their morals, and even religion against them. Keep trying to save us women who are so evil that we are phone sex actresses. This isn't a witch trial, or is it? It's always funny to me because instead of women getting together and SUPPORTING each others choices, they are always ready to be overly critical, competitve, and judgemental. Go on tell me I an a heathen, a whore, a slut, and so on. Show everyone what better women you are, by trashing other women. I live my own life and I allow others to do the same, even when I disagree. It's no wonder why I prefer talking to men all day.
posted May 29, 2001 09:23 PM
First off, I want to reiterate that I stated that I am just as much of a sinner as you or anyone else here. But second, without going into great detail about how the Bible does NOT slam women, let me give you 3 well-known examples where it does just the opposite.
Jesus forgave the woman at the well who had five husbands, he forgave the woman caught in adultry whom the MEN wanted to stone, but Jesus asked for the one without sin to throw the first stone, and none of them did. When the prostitute Mary Magnaline poured purfume over Him, He said that she would be remembered forever for her kind deed, even though the disciples laughed at her.
Many people think that because women were often used as property in much of the Bible that that is how God views them. But it's not the case. In fact, God many times tries to tell the men to love and respect the women, it was MAN (who is imperfect) who degrades women. Not the Bible, and not God.
posted June 01, 2001 03:11 PM
It's funny that nothing else I said made sense except when I mentioned "the bible". My point was not to pick apart YOUR religion, my point was to make you see YOU shouldn't pick apart MY work. There is no topic in the world that can't be debated about. We are all full of opinions on this planet and opinions can be interesting. It's when I started reading how many ladies were passing judgement that I felt I should write.
Ignorance is defined as "the lack of knowledge or education". Please understand ladies that your opinions on phone sex workers is based on ignorance if you have not been educated about it, experienced it, or so on. I can understand one of the women who said her hubby had an addiction, that's a whole other topic to debate. I see 110% where she is coming from. An addiction is an addiction - the symptom (sex, alcohol, drugs) is never the true cause of it. I think we can all make sense out of that.
This is a discussion board where debate and conversation is encouraged. Being an operator and seeing several women attacked for being empowered enough to make their OWN choice -- is what made me post. I am not debating to offend anyone, I am trying to make you all think before you speak/judge the next time...... because God (the goddess, the great spirit, etc to HONOR ALL religions) gave us all 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason.
Just to further make my point sink in, I have some links here too. You can pick apart phone sex operators, but religions can be picked apart too. The coin needs looked at from both sides.
Working in my chosen field is not for everyone, I totally agree. I selected this job and dove into my own morals before I started it. I am fully capable of questioning MYSELF, as is every other woman who does this work. We do not need it explained to us, we do not need to be enlightened. We operators KNOW the best as to what this work is like. Questions are great and understandable, you can learn something from it. But judgements need to be left some place else. Anyone who wants to discuss this further with me can personally email me at [email protected]
posted June 02, 2001 07:39 PM
I spent a few moments skimming a couple of these links posted above by "A Phone Sex Operator." These are the typical opinions of people who take things out of context and do not understand what it is to truly be a believer. The Bible does not maintain that I am any less valuable or loved by God than is my husband. Women are created and loved by God just as are men. I am not a brainless dishrag subservient to the will of my husband. On the contrary, I am a valuable asset to him and my family. I gladly fulfill my role as servant of God, wife, mother and homemaker. Let me just make VERY clear that I have not passed judgment on any person who has posted here. This board asked for opinions. My opinion is that phone sex is not an appropriate job for anyone and that it is most definitely adultery. Anyone involved in it is involved in an immoral activity. This is not a judgment. There is a HUGE difference between judging a person and discerning a behavior that is inappropriate. If I were incapable of discerning right from wrong, how would I know whether I were behaving in an acceptable fashion? Before there is another "what's right for you may not be right for me" response, think about it. This is hardly the same situation, but let's look at a pedophile. S/He doesn't see anything wrong with molesting children. It is "right" for him/her because s/he enjoys it. Is it right for the child? NO! Should anyone be allowed to get away with such a crime using the defense, "It was right for me, so I should not have to face the consequences?" I should say not! Ok, a bit of a far-fetched example. The point is, there are moral, behavioral absolutes. There is a tue right and wrong, not based on the whims of humans and what feels good to the individual.
posted June 04, 2001 08:47 PM
The point was still missed... just as You might be able to pick apart my job -- I can pick apart religion. EVERYTHING can be debated and argued -- Religion included. In fact religion is just as taboo as sex. For every argument there is a counter argument. The difference is... aside from the moral thing (which is a very personal matter) -- I don't see any evidence to say this work is wrong... none based on actual knowledge. It's all been speculation and religious opinions. MY morals are different than yours, just as MY spirituality is... because in the United States we have the freedom to choose our religions and our JOBS. Also it's not that I am a "non-believer" in religion -- I just happen to believe in a more "liberal" one. I intentionally am not being specific about my religion, as I would never try to force MY beliefs onto someone else. Just as my work is my own choice -- so is my spirituality. Remember -- I only posted the LINKS - those weren't my words on those sites. You can label it "non-believer" but the proof was..... there are different opinions out there.
This Statement ...."These are the typical opinions of people who take things out of context and do not understand what it is to truly be a believer." can also be true of me by just changing "believer" to "phone sex operator".
Let's try to break it down. Moral dilemmas involve a conflict of our values, so we have to think about the outcome, and what the long term affect is on our decisions. Free thinkers try to base actions on consequences. We use analytical thinking to evaluate a situation, and then decide whether or not it is against our morals.
In a school or work setting "inappropriate behavior" (which was thrown out as a label)is defined by the administration and it varies to each situation. In a relationship, it would be defined by the couple. Again when you use the term "inappropriate behavior" you are referring to adultery.
Adultery is generally defined as sexual "intercourse" between a married person and someone other than his/her spouse. Some states require cohabitation and habitual relations to establish adultery. In many states, it's grounds for divorce and can influence property distribution and custody decisions Some states attach civil or criminal penalties for adultery. In some states it is not a crime at all. The LAW can't even agree on it.
Extramarital affairs are not just about intercourse, true. As long as there is secrecy, emotional intimacy, and sexual chemistry, then the marriage has probably been violated. (neither physical contact, intimacy, nor any sexual chemistry is involved in phone sex - it is simply another means of masturbation) But, there are no clear-cut rules -- the definition of adultery may be different for each couple. It's important every couple sets that rule for themselves, and it's not for them to dictate to any other relationship.
Everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart." [Matthew 5:28] If we take this very literally with the knowledge that 100% of men have at least ONCE (and I am being extremely generous)masturbated with a magazine or the imagine of a woman in his mind.... it means all men have already commited adultery before they call, and probably will the rest of their lives.
Everybody wants absolutes on this and feel they know them, but there are no absolutes. No one denied that men masturbated daily, which I found oh so interesting. We KNOW they do. So some men use a magazine, and others call an operator. The question comes in as to.... when does masturbation become cheating? Is fantasy cheating as well? There is no physical contact, yet the fantasy almost is never about your partner.
Men do not talk to their wives and girlfriends about their masturbation habits. Women usually take offense to it, and take it personally when their husbands do it. Women feel and think ... "why does he need to do this?" "there must be something wrong with me". That's not it at all, there is NOTHING wrong with a man masturbating, and it is certainly not his wifes fault. Men even have discussions about masturbation with other men. The reason they keep it hidden from women/wives/girlfriends is because most women can't accept it for what it is. Sometimes a man just has the desire to have an orgasm without all the intimacy/work that a woman requires in sex. Sometimes all they seek is the orgasm. It's perfectly healthy.
I'm not looking to change your religious views or anybody else’s. I have my God and you have yours. My mind is open and accepting to all people, no matter what they do for a living -- providing it is legal..... and phone sex IS legal. Phone Sex is controlled by the government and FCC regulations. The law says it's ok for me to do this, and I pay taxes on my income. The law also would NOT define phone sex as adultery because there is no physical contact. To keep comparing phone sex to crimes is ridiculous, and to keep comparing it to adultery is MORE than questionable.
The bottom line is this... You aren't planning on changing your religious views anytime soon. I do not plan to change my views on phone sex or the work that I provide. We should both be allowed to live like that with out any judgment imposed by other humans. I just simply felt that everything under the sun was used as blackmail to frighten off the woman/women who *might* want to work as an operator. It's an individual free thinkers choice, and nothing more. If a woman has a moral issue with the work, then she won't do it. A woman faced with the choice will have to look at HER own morals and feelings about it. If she happens to be married then she will discuss it with her husband. That's exactly what we want empowered women to do -- have the choice. Again, I will state as to make it clear -- the work is not for everyone. It's not easy money, and requires just as much dedication as any other type of work.
BTW child molesters and rapists are not calling us as operators... they are too busy concealing their crimes and looking for their next victim. Rape and molestation are NOT sexual crimes - they are crimes of violence and about power and neither have anything to do with phone sex. To compare extreme crimes of violence to phone sex is like comparing ice cream to toilet paper. The two topics aren't even in the same ball park.
I'd also like to thank the women who did email me because they "got the point" of what I was saying. I really do appreciate your support ladies, and thank you for your emails! I am happy to help anyone "decide for themselves" whether this job is for them or not by offering advice and my own personal experiences..... privately. [email protected]
posted June 05, 2001 08:57 AM
Simply because you stated that no one refuted your statement about all men masturbating every day, I will.
You can choose not to believe me, but I personally know several men who do not masturbate everyday, let alone look at any magazines with naked people. Most, if not all, of these men are married Christians. And most, even if they masturbated before marriage, did not look at porn magazines because they thought it was wrong. And yes, if they thought about a woman while doing it (which is quite likely), then that is wrong. Have I ever thought about a man sexually before I was married? Yes, and I was wrong.
But, there are people out there, including men, who would agree that there is no place for masturbation in a marriage (in fact, in our pre-marital counseling, it was even mentioned on the video about sexuality that we watched). I know that not all Christians believe or act this way, but many do, so you can not sum all men up in the daily-masturbation group. It isn't true anymore than saying all Christians are the same.
posted June 05, 2001 03:57 PM
I agree. I do know at least one Christian man who does not masturbate, and that would be my husband. He believes it is akin to adultery. I think every teenage boy (maybe there are some exceptions) does at one time or another, and most couldn't resist a peek at a Playboy should the opportunity arise. Does that make it right? I think not. The claim that "everybody does it" does not make it right.
"Everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart." [Matthew 5:28] This verse does indeed mean that to look at a person lustfully, to fantasize about a person other than one's spouse, etc. constitutes adultery. Christians are not perfect, we are forgiven. I do not claim to know everyone's reasons for getting involved in phone sex. I have not walked in anyone's shoes but my own. If you are reading this and you are a phone sex operator, I am not judging you personally. My opinion on the industry is that it is an immoral and potentially harmful one. I believe that God loves you and would rather see you doing something more wholesome. I can't and am not attempting to pick apart anyone's job. We all get to a point at some time, in some context, where we feel there is no way out. If your children are hungry, you have to feed them. I don't condemn any one for wanting to take care of their family. However, the end does not always justify the means. How you choose live your life is ultimately between you and God. Again, this forum asked for our opinions. We're all entitled to do so! God bless ALL of you.
[This message has been edited by Jewel (edited June 05, 2001).]
posted June 05, 2001 09:50 PM
The medical field tells us that men think about sex every 2 minutes. Someone said.... a teenage boy does it (masturbates) one time or another???? Goodness, I won't even comment on that one lol. Yes, everybody does it, and it DOES make it ok.... it makes it a NORMAL part of the human existence.
The following information I physically looked up on Medical Websites: Some experts express concern if a healthy man or woman does not masturbate at least occasionally. It's a "clinical" fact that men who masturbate have healthier sexual appetites. They do the deed from the time they are young men all through their lives. Twenty years ago the American Medical Association declared masturbation is a normal and healthy sexual activity. Medical statistics say that 98% of men do it and 95% of women do it. http://www.medicalonline.com.au/medical/sex_therapy/masturbation.htm
Lets think about the medical settings in which a doctor might ask any married man to masturbate. During the recovery period for prostate cancer and to check his sperm count. If *I* am knowledgeable enough -- it seems to me that a doctor will put a man in a private room with a dirty magazine and a cup. Is that cheating too? Is that wrong? Sometimes masturbation is therapeutic for a man with impotence, or another sexual dysfunction.
Or what about women who have been sexually abused, and the REAL men who love that woman will masturbate to give their partners time... for months..... or years that she may need to heal. Those men are angels who masturbate rather than divorce their wife because she was raped and not ready for intercourse. I applaud them.
There may be times in a relationship when mutual sexual expression is not possible; for instance when one partner is ill, away, or simply too tired. For some women during various stages of pregnancy, intercourse may not be appealing. In certain pregnancies intercourse is not advised. Say hello to masturbation again.
I wanted to state that there are ALWAYS "gray areas" in life. It's part of being human. There are no absolutes. Life is not black and white, and we wouldn't want it to be. What makes the world great is the fact that there are different religions, different experiences, and different opinions.
To me a phone sex operator is an actress. And just like any actress, we are playing a role. We do not condemn an actor for doing love scenes in a movie. There is very little difference to what I do for a living.
For me, the end DOES justify the means. I am happy, enjoy my job, and I make darn good money - the best I have ever made in my life. I do not see my job as immoral, and in all the years I have been doing it do I see any real harm caused to anyone. I have no starving children and nor did I ever. I chose this work. I wanted to work at home, to be a woman who can stand on my own 2 feet. I am proud of what I do. I look forward to each and every time my phone rings. I have morals, values, and a deep spiritual life.
I have learned many amazing things from being in this business too! I learned how to speak up and defend not only myself, but anyone else who needs a voice. I learned how to be aggressive in business. I learned how to deal with people of every race, creed, and religion. I became very educated about tons of things, simply by talking to people. I found out about the rest of the world. I learned how to speak my mind without feeling guilty. I learned how to be more tolerant and understanding of people. I learned how to hire, train, and work with others to bring in the most positive results. I learned how to build a web page and how to do online marketing. I learned how to become a better writer. I learned how to teach other women to make as much money as I do. I learned not to feel pressured by society or what other people think. I learned to be totally independent. I found out by total surprise that I am good at the business side of things. I learned that only *I* truly know what is best for ME. I learned to let go of my inhibitions and how to truly be me. I learned to let go of my financial worries and how to enjoy the money I was making. I learned to recognize honesty from deception in people. And most of all I am happy for all the things I learned about men that I wish I had known before. Life and relationships are so much easier for me now, because I can understand the opposite sex. I am proud that I made my business choice and a success. I do not feel that I do not have a "way out". I look at all the things I have learned and accomplished with pride!
I learned some things too on this message board, and I will include it in the book I am writing about this industry.
Again, I will say my work is not for everyone. I want to make that very clear. The ONLY type of work worthy of doing is the kind that makes you feel good and inspired. I talk to men who are fathers, sons, husbands, grandfathers, brothers, cousins, and uncles. Neither the callers, or the operators are any less “wholesome”. I know from the emails I received that I did help a few women understand this business in a whole new light. Acceptance, open mindedness, understanding, and learning something while we are on this planet....... is what life is really about.
posted June 05, 2001 10:26 PM
I would like to say that I personally feel as if this thread has taken a wrong turn. The original statement to be discussed was whether a MOM should have a job as a telephone "actress", not whether anyone in the world should or shouldn't. I don't personally agree with the idea as you all know. BUT...(I know, always a but) there are many things that are acceptable from a person before they are a parent that become unacceptable afterwards. I don't recall reading that "a phone sex operator" has children. (or even a husband) And for several posts now, this has been a debate about whether it should be done at all. So..."phone sex operator"...DO you have children? And if so, do you really feel like this is an appropriate job for a mom? Or are you just defending your right to it because you feel a need? I agree that judgment should not be made, becuase none of us are perfect, but you have to admit that it isn't going to be the kind of job looked upon with respect. Not just becuase of the industry,couple that with it requiring no education, degree or specialized training and it's basicly a cheap source of income. I don't mean that offensively, just that it's not awe inspiring or intelligent. I am not "ignorant" of the industry either...I have many experiences from which I can draw. If you'd like an example, I went to college with a girl who "danced" her way through school. She had to keep up with her tuition and with classes all day except Mondays, a day job was apparantly out of the question for her. She made good money dancing in an upscale bar (and some not so) every night of the week. She invited me to try it, I accepted. WHat a joke! Men throwing away their paychecks to buy a 7-up and water for a girl in a skimpy outfit (you see, they think they're buying stiff drinks but they're not) not to mention the money they'll stuff down a boot just to get you to make eye contact. LOSERS!! Now, knowing what I know now, it was an experience and I'll just chalk it up to that...though it wasn't a good one. But I didn't have kids back then. I would NEVER dream of doing something like that even when I didn't have kids...it's just sooo beneath me. Are morals a personal issue? They shouldn't be. That's the problem with kids now. THey don't know what they are becuase we're all to afraid to live by them. Back to the original comment...there are facts to substantiate why phone sex is bad for a mom. It brings and exposes sex. Isn't it a fact that there's too much sex on television now. That little girls have role models like Britney Spears. That AIDS commercials run rampant on kids channels in the afternoon. How could a job in the sex industry possibly be a good example for a parent to set for their child? We are supposed to be the anti-drug, the anti-media, their safe place. I'm sorry, all other issues...religion, morals, whatever you want to use to define or justify whatever, all that aside, it's just NOT the job for a woman who cares about her children. Anymore that that job dancing was right for someother mothers daughter. Can you say "easy money". Go ahead...feed us with how "difficult" the job is and how "hard" you work. I talk on the phone too. Nobody pays me. Lastly, I would just like to say that I am amazed at the vast knowledge and deep insight into the male psyche phone "actressing" gives a person. WOW. John Grey should check this avenue out!
quote:Originally posted by A Phone Sex Operator: .[/b]
Well, I will concede that you do seem to be very articulate and confident. I don't agree with you that what you have chosen to do is moral, and there is nothing that would ever convince me otherwise. There is probably nothing I could say that would change your mind either. However, I think you have presented your side of the issue very well. I know the statistics on masturbation. I said it is sinful, not that people don't do it! Some people do it quite frequently. That still does not make it OK. I may be a right wing Christian conservative, but I have not buried my head in the sand. I simply do not buy the idea "If it feels good, do it." I believe there are absolutes. Yes, there are gray areas, too, but there comes a point where a line is crossed. No one's activities should harm another physically or emotionally. You have said that your points have been missed - well, so has at least one of mine. No person is less valuable or wholesome or important or ... because of their job or any choice they have made. Perhaps there is no distinction to you, but to me there is a huge difference between saying that an activity is "bad" and saying a person is "bad."
[This message has been edited by Jewel (edited June 06, 2001).]
posted June 07, 2001 04:08 PM
Wow, what a long-lived and interesting thread! I've collected a few e-mail addresses to try to get more information on the options and realities for phone actresses.
I have something to say to the people who think the sex industry should be eliminated because sex addiction ruins lives. By this logic, since alcohol addiction ruins lives, the sale of alcohol should be banned. Since gambling addiction ruins lives, casinos should be banned. Since shopping addiction ruins lives, stores should be banned. Since eating addiction ruins lives...where does the logic end?
It is not the act or the product that is ruinous, it is the ABUSE of it. You can't legislate your way to a perfect world.
One more comment: The courtesans of 16th c. Venice were sought out, not so much for their bodies, as for their minds. There were among the most educated women of their time, and the ones who were the most highly regarded were the ones that didn't _have_ to do anything sexual to keep a man entertained. "Good, proper women" weren't allowed to have the kind of education that made them stimulating conversationalists.
And to all you Bible Thumpers out there, don't bother. I decided almost twenty years ago that Christianity doesn't work for me. I have a spirituality that does, and I ask that you do me the courtesy of respecting my choices as I respect yours.
quote:Originally posted by WifeMomThinker: I have something to say to the people who think the sex industry should be eliminated because sex addiction ruins lives. By this logic, since alcohol addiction ruins lives, the sale of alcohol should be banned. Since gambling addiction ruins lives, casinos should be banned. Since shopping addiction ruins lives, stores should be banned. Since eating addiction ruins lives...where does the logic end?
I forgot one. Internet addiction can ruin lives, yet here you all are, using the Internet. If people who participate in things (like the Internet or gambling or phone sex) that can ruin marriages and lives when abused are to be condemned for it, what does that say about you being here? ;-)
quote:Originally posted by CorraLeeR: hey beamjl is it ok for a mom to call men losers, make fun of some one else, or say somebody is beneath u? i was just wondering if that set a good example for children?
I am not making fun of any person. I am saying that the "act" itself is beneath me. And yes, it is the example I want to set. If our children are not taught that they are to be the best they can be, then why would they ever even try. Should I just say that drugs, premarital sex, phone sex hot lines, hand guns and violence, cheating on tests, being lazy, too much junk food, what ever... I could go on and on...that anything they choose to do is OK just becuase of whatever reason they can find to justify it? I think kids need to be taught that they have self worth and if they can't identify what is worthwhile, then I will have failed them. As for calling men losers, well... some people just are. My children are taught that everyone is human, everyone makes mistakes, and that everyone deserves a chance. However, they are also taught that there are those people who make choices that they shouldn't make and that it affects their lives in a negative way. Those are the types of people I prefer my children to avoid. Further more, I was not addressing my children or anyone elses' when I made the comment. So excuse me, if you need it re-phrased I should say that those men which I had come in contact with were not MY idea of quality individuals. I don't care if they had good jobs, nice cars, whatever. They just weren't decent men. I certainly was NOT referring to all men in general. My last comment to this thread will be this. In defense of those who have posted their standpoint from the bible and as a Christian, I don't feel as if they've crossed any lines. They have simply stated what their faith enables them to know. They are also not the ones getting defensive when their position is challenged. It's because they know they don't have to. I also feel that mostly, the comments in favor of the job were posted intelligently. Especially by "A Phone Sex Operator". I can see from her dialouge, that she will write a great book no matter what the subject. I will never agree with a mom working in the sex industry. And that is all I have disputed. If you're single, married, gay, divorced, empty nested, whatever...the choice is yours. But if you are a mom with kids in the house, then I strongly disagree with chosing this kind of job. To everyone who will keep returning to this thread, and all who are new, I hope everyones opinion is respected equally and that thought will be provoked. Also, kudos to those of you still "thumping your bibles" not everyone will see the light, but you have done what God expects of you by telling them where to look.
quote:Originally posted by [email protected]: I TO AM LOOKING FOR SOME EXTRA INCOME AND IF THIS SUBJECT IS SOMETHING THAT WILL HELP ME ACHIEVE THIS THEN I WOULD DO IT ALSO..I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW HOW TO GET INVOLVED AND AS LONG AS MY HUSBAND FEELS ITS OK, I AM NOT ACTUALLY SLEEPING WITH ANYONE!!
posted June 22, 2001 05:36 AM
thank you! I have been a phonesex operator for 4 years. Its intrigueing, gives you insigth into what men are REALLY like, its funny, easy as anything to do and not half as bad as the people who prejudge it think it is. No one reconises you if you have the ablity to change your voice a few notches, you dont use your real name, they dont know who you are and if it stops these rampant men from going out on the streets cheating on their wives for real then its all good. What would youprefer, that he cheated on you with a real life woman OR that he spoke to one of us when you were away and fulfilled himself?rememebr that we are only a voice, we are no more real that a dream to him and will never be able to compete with the real thing if its good.
posted June 22, 2001 06:00 AM
I know ofa site of the net that deals only in adult jobs, including phone work throughout internationally. As a ph/s worker for the last 4 years for several different companies I can say that it is a VERY rewarding job, its the most challenging fun you'll ever have on the phone, it keeps all the men who would otherwise stray to a real life 'other woman'sexually safe from diseases, Stops the perverts from going onto the street instead and abusing women. Children do nto have to know anything as any sane mother would work from anothr room and virtually whisper softly into the phone. We do not scream the house down feigning passion(obviously)! Its extrememly easy work. If frends come tosee me and they are curious I let thm listen inon th extention and they are surprised by find it hilarious also. My boyfreind does 'double calls' with me and finds it very sexy and i even get woemn callers. They dont all call for sex. 'sex line' just meansthat they have thee option of talking about sex if they want to. Most of my callers are happy to just carry on talking sex while I occasionally mock a sigh while watching Jerry Springer with the volume down!! Im practically promoting the ease of this type of work to everyone and would highly recommend it for those who are nto prudes aged 18-60. My mother did it, I do it and a few freinds who havelistened in on my calls arenow doing it too. Its great fun. contact me if u want help O.K!
posted June 22, 2001 03:47 PM
I would personally feel betrayed if my husband ever called one of those phone sex lines. Fortunately, he and I agree that sort of thing is cheating on one's spouse. There is more to infidelity than just the physical act of sex. To those of you who have requested that we "Bible Thumpers" respect other people's beliefs, I have a question: Would that mean that out of respect for your beliefs, I should keep the Truth to myself? If that's the case, I cannot. First, telling others about the Lord is one of the greatest commandments. Second, I would be selfish to keep what I have found through my faith in the Lord to myself. If you mean that I should not try to force my beliefs down your throat, then I agree. It is only for me to tell others about God. It's your choice whether or not to believe. You have the choice of whether or not to even read a message any of us "Bible Thumpers" post when you see where it is headed. Whether I agree with you or not, you have as much right as I have to post any response you wish. Finally, in a way, I welcome the negative responses to the "Bible Thumper" posts. The Bible tells us that when we're doing what we're supposed to be doing for God's Kingdom, we will be persecuted. The ugly remarks here are nothing compared to what Christians in other parts of the world face, and I'm thankful to live in a country where I am free to worship the One True God.
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world He gave His one and only Son that whoever believes in Him shall have life everlasting."
[This message has been edited by Jewel (edited June 23, 2001).]
posted June 25, 2001 03:06 PM
As a former christian myself (and now a backslider!)I believe everything you cristian girls are saying. Its all absolutely true and should be taken heed of...if your a cristian. Once we stop being cristian our cristian morality goes straight out the window and we gain different types of morals that arent so hard to achieve. For a cristian I believe too that this type of work is wrong as it goes against Gods teaching, but as a non cristian I believe that my rent needs to be paid NOW, not when I find a job that people wont judge me on (such as working on a checkout). Everyones different. Either you want ot do it or you dont. Thats why God made us all different, and because of this people will choose different paths in which to walk and live thier lives. Everyones right!
posted June 25, 2001 05:18 PM
although i do feel that phone sex rates right up there with prostitution, i do understand that you have to do what you have to do to feed your children, and put a roof over their heads. for those of you who feel this is wrong, i will have to respectfully disagree. nowhere is a woman who gives it away judged as harshly as one who asks that it be paid for, and consider this, if they are willing to pay for it, doesn't that ensure slightly better treatment than what you get from the guys who say"i'll call you..." and never do? not to mention the issue of need. consider this story... A young single mother moves to another state to escape an abusive ex. upon getting to that state, she stays temporarily with a friend who at that time is also unemployed, and has a small child of their own. this friend is essentially unemployable, and the young mother finds a job immediately, but has no daycare. she and her friend work out an arrangement, where she will take care of the finances, and the friend will take care of the house, kids, etc. after the first month of this arrangement, they both see that the income is nowhere near enough to pay the bills and feed the children. but if the friend goes to work, the mother loses her job, and the cost of daycare in that area would take two paychecks to cover. her factory does not offer a night shift, and neither do most companies in that area. the mother initially decides to work as a dancer, but has heard too many stories about what happens to those girls after hours in the parking lots. so she looks a little further into the industry and finds that with a little help she can assure her safety, and know that she will not be forced to do anything against her will. she goes out on her first call, and discovers a very lonely divorcee who just wants someone to talk to. what she learns is that the majority of men who pay for it, just don't want the kinds of risks and downfalls that come from barrom one night stands, and do not want a relationship either.
posted June 26, 2001 12:18 AM
This board has really helped me see what other people have to go through to feed their kids, pay their bills, etc. As a mom I know that I would do whatever it takes to feed and clothe my child. Thankfully I have a supportive fiance, who has a steady job, if not great hours, at least he can pay the bills while I stay at home with our son. But to those of you who view those who do phonesex as absolutely wrong, what would you do? What if you made mistakes and were unemployable? Would you let your kids starve, or would you do whatever it takes, maybe not necessarily phone sex, but whatever? Everyone has an opinion about what other people do, and not everyone's going to approve, but I know this: As a mother I must do what I can to protect my child, and nurture him, and that means whatever it takes. I'm glad I had this chance to be enlightened about other people's lives.
posted June 28, 2001 07:35 AM
Hi board. Interesting read here fer shure. I just wanted to reply to Jewel's remark about "truth". It's YOUR truth (and mine), just not everyone's truth and that needs to be said again I guess. Its great you and your husband agree on the phone sex issue. Thats all the really matters right? You don't really have anything else to add to the conversation except your religious beliefs, which is really off topic. You just keep stating that its wrong and God says so. You have posted since page one & hey we all already know how you feel. I am not trying to flame, it's just a point and my opinion as another Christian. Your opinion has been plainly intelligently stated many many many times already. We already know how you feel about the Lord, and thank you for all your sharing. I feel you accomplished your mission on this topic a long time ago.
Mel Gibson is a Christian and a creative director and actor. He has several kids too. The love scenes and violence in Braveheart was pretty explicit. But we all know he is an actor so that is only a job for him. I doubt he let kids see it, and his wife must know the love scenes aren't real.
posted June 28, 2001 10:04 AM
McPAIGE67 I applaude you! Finally, someone has let JEWEL know that while it is okay for her to have her opinion -- she needs to stop shoving it down everyone else's throats! I completely agree with McPaige's response regarding every issue raised! Thank you for someone finally telling Jewel how it really is! Now, maybe she can get off of her holier than though attitude and realize that the world does not work the way she wants it to becuase some bible says it should! Reality has to set in at some point! Personally, I think it is sad to lack an opinion of your own just because someone or something says you should only think one way! Congratulations to her and her husband for being so perfect, however, most of us admit that we are not perfect and still live good clean respectable lives! I realize that I will probably be jumped on for this reply and that is okay -- I just cannot stomach the preaching any longer! While we are all entitled to our opinion, must we bash people over the head with our bibles just becuase we can? I am sure that somewhere in your bible it says that God is the only true judge which would mean to me that certain others should keep their harsh judgmental opinions to themselves for fear of God's rath coming back to them! Additionally, I am a good person who believes in God who does not participate in phone sex. I am, however, a person who believes that to each his own. They are not hurting anyone, on the contrary, they are sacrificing to give their children a better life.
posted June 28, 2001 12:45 PM
If ever there was a hot topic, I believe this is it. It amazes me how religion finds it's way into conversations that have nothing to do with it. One statement that I found the postings riddled with was "these women think there is no other way to make money" That is a huge assumption. Could it be that these women possibly enjoy what they are doing? That they like the fact that they can work their own hours, be at home with their children? Be home to make sure a hot meal is on the table when their husbands/boyfriends get home from a long day? Keep the house clean? Just have total freedom??? Another word that has been thrown around here alot is "morals". The funny thing about morals is this.... they are all very personal and very individual. What you may find immoral, another person may not. I always find it interesting how the people who claim to be the most "moral" are the ones who constantly try to convert people to their system of beliefs, almost shoving their beliefs down another's throat. To me, THAT is immoral. Allow people the freedom to live their lives as they see fit. No one is telling you how to live your life, or what type of work to do. Leave these people alone!!
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