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It's been awhile since I posted on the craft part of this board because I become and AVON rep and stopped crafting from home for awhile. A couple months ago my husband was laid off and I needed to pick up something that would provide additional income to Avon. I always was drawn to Disciples Cross just because the crosses are beautiful and I'd wear one so I figured others would too. I read up on it and decided to try it out but not try the buy back problem, just see if I could make them and sell them on my own...

OMG! I can't believe how much every one loves them and how much profit I make with each one selling them on my own! I just wear mine (pink for me most of the time!) and I get asked about it a lot! I mean probably about 1/2 of the places I go to, I get asked about it! I sell them for $7-$9 each. If someone buys a few I give them for $7. If just one I give them for $9. Nobody has ever thought this was too much.

I just wanted to share since these boards have really been able to help me find opportunities.

Here's the link if you are interested and feel free to ask any questions you have about it!


Edited by: cbryk0718

I just ordered the starter kit. Can't wait to try it out. It was rather expense, but it comes with a DVD! That should help a lot. Plus I like the idea of making crosses.

What has been your experience making these? I'd love to hear from you.

I made these necklaces 3-4 years ago. My namewas in the top producer section.
The buy back program was "lacking" at that time, so I just made and sold in my area. That's not what I wanted to do tho. I wanted to makeand send back to the company for payment. I do wish DC had been more "producer" friendly.


You might contact stores in your local area and ask about setting a display by their check out stand.....especially in Western Wear stores.....cow pokes go crazy for stuff like this. Also, if you know anyone that travels the rodeo circuits, that's a great place to sell these necklaces.

I made these necklaces 3-4 years ago. My namewas in the top producer section.
The buy back program was "lacking" at that time, so I just made and sold in my area. That's not what I wanted to do tho. I wanted to makeand send back to the company for payment. I do wish DC had been more "producer" friendly.


You might contact stores in your local area and ask about setting a display by their check out stand.....especially in Western Wear stores.....cow pokes go crazy for stuff like this. Also, if you know anyone that travels the rodeo circuits, that's a great place to sell these necklaces.

Deadra, I'm surprised you stopped! I love making them and make a great profit from them! I can see myself working for them for awhile! At least until I can make a full income from AVON. Were they not selling well in your area or was it just that you really didn't want to have to do the selling part?

I like that so far all I've done is worn mine to get sales. But I think I may start looking into setting up booths if I can get a ton done at once. I mean, I know I can if I wanted to but I really like spending a lot of time on AVON too.

Thanks for the advice on the Western Wear stores. I'll save that one for the future!

I just ordered the starter kit. Can't wait to try it out. It was rather expense, but it comes with a DVD! That should help a lot. Plus I like the idea of making crosses.

What has been your experience making these? I'd love to hear from you.



I'm working on writing lots about it now since I like to write in my spare time! Check out my siggy and it'll take you to it! smileys/smiley1.gif

I read your squidoo page. So you bend the nails yourself? I'm thinking about ordering the pre-bent ones. But I want to make sure I can sell the ones from the starter kit first.

They emailed today and said the kit has shipped! I plan on selling them at my local flea market.

Edited by: MtnHiker

Hey christine I had a neighbor my daughter played with her son when they were small. She did really well with Avon. She had alot of women working for her. She won the top spot with Avon and got to go to New York and get an award.


She always had her front yard filled with boxes from all the product that was delivered to her home.


Good Luck with all your adventures and am very happy you are doing well.

I read your squidoo page. So you bend the nails yourself? I'm thinking about ordering the pre-bent ones. But I want to make sure I can sell the ones from the starter kit first.

They emailed today and said the kit has shipped! I plan on selling them at my local flea market.



Yes, for now I am bending them myself but i may in the future go with prebent just so i can make them faster!! You'll get the hang of it! Just takes some practice and of course some will get it faster than others but I'm tiny (4'11, not very strong) and can do it so I'm sure anyone can!

I think flea markets would be awesome! They really are BEAUTIFUL!! And different, you won't have many others selling these, if any at all! That's what makes them even better!

Hey christine I had a neighbor my daughter played with her son when they were small. She did really well with Avon. She had alot of women working for her. She won the top spot with Avon and got to go to New York and get an award.


She always had her front yard filled with boxes from all the product that was delivered to her home.


Good Luck with all your adventures and am very happy you are doing well.

Thank you Cindy!! I am doing really well with AVON but it does take time to build as it is definitely a business and not a job so building customer base takes time!

I love it though and along with DC, I am now contributing to my household income on a pretty consistent basis! YAY!

Hey Christine,
I remember you, we use to chat back in March when you first started the bookmark and I had started the cross stitch card both by the same company. Dont feel so bad, I quit the card for the same reason, they took forever to complete and I had plenty to dofor NEC.
I'm glad you popped back in to say hello, looks like your doing great with your wahj. Keep in touch.

Hey Christine,
I remember you, we use to chat back in March when you first started the bookmark and I had started the cross stitch card both by the same company. Dont feel so bad, I quit the card for the same reason, they took forever to complete and I had plenty to dofor NEC.
I'm glad you popped back in to say hello, looks like your doing great with your wahj. Keep in touch.

Hi Kimberly!!smileys/smiley4.gif

Yes, I remember you! This is what I started looking like after I did the bookmarks for so long: smileys/smiley29.gif LOL

But, yes, I'm doing well with my wahj's and loving it!! Thanks for saying hi!! I hope you are doing awesome as well!

I ordered the cross kit on Thurs. morning and it came today! (Sat.) Yay! There is a checklist of all the items in the kit and everything is there. Now I need to watch the DVD.
smileys/smiley1.gif

Wow Teresa you are going to be busy..I think i have kept track. Thats the Disiple Cross, Bookmark, C. Horse (NEC) and the Happiness Bell right?

Heheheh! smileys/smiley36.gif Yep!!! You got it all right. I'm only waiting on the Bookmark kit now.

Wow! I'm going to have to get me some tools. My needle nosed pliers are rounded so they won't work....almost broke them.

My husband's one pair of vise grips are autolock and are hard to open and close, but are actually great for bending the bottom nails to an exact 90 degrees because they have a flat fronted nose.

Those vise grips won't be good for any other part though. Oh well...it's a start. I think these are going to be lots of fun!

Ok...I've decided that I don't like these vise grips, they can put a second bend in the nail if you're not careful.

Teresa, I'm so excited you are getting started!! I can't wait to hear your updates!

Hehe! I'm having a blast, and I'm barely getting started. The DVD is great, lots of close-ups and tips. Going to get more tools tomorrow....

Well I got SOME of the tools I need today, but will have to wait until tomorrow to get more unless I decide to order them online.

So I still can't make even one cross until I more tools. I think I'll work on the bell now.

I finally got a pair of pliers and starting bending nails. The bend in the top nail that he says is the hardest bend to make...I have no trouble with that one. I'm having trouble making the loops! Ouch! Also I think my pliers are fatter than his and they're causing too large of loops unless I use the very tip and I think that's making it doubly hard on my hands.

I couldn't find the long neck pliers that he says gives you more leverage (except on his website). Does anyone have those? Do they really make it a lot easier?

Also I think someone mentioned wearing a workout glove...I may have to try that as well. I now have 8 fairly good looking nails, so I think I'll practice wrapping wire.

I have completed my first cross!!! There's no way I'm turning it in for inspection, I scratched the wire pretty bad and it doesn't look as straight as it should. I even accidentally used a different color for the last wire. But I'm pretty proud of my first try.

You know how sometimes when something is difficult you just want to fling it across the room and give up? And other times, you keep trying without getting mad, getting more determined as you go? That's how this cross is for me (more determined that is).

When I couldn't make the bends the way he showed, I figured out a different way that worked for me yet gave the same results (uh, well they WILL with some practice :D ), and is easier on my hands.

Well, it's way past dinner time now! Off to rummage through the fridge.......

WOO HOO!!!smileys/smiley32.gif

That is so exciting! It definitely gets easier as you figure out what works best for you!

I love that others will be able to find this opportunity through this post!!

I wanted to clarify what I said about not being able to make the cross the way they explained it. It was only because I didn't buy the right kind of pliers. They weren't the right size or shape so they weren't making the same kind of bends in the nails.

The right tool really does make a big difference. I might make a few more with the tools I have now, but I'm afraid I'll have to re-learn how to make them when I get different tools.

I need to find some way to protect my thumb and forefinger when wrapping the wire.....medical tape maybe?

I made these necklaces 3-4 years ago. My namewas in the top producer section.
The buy back program was "lacking" at that time, so I just made and sold in my area. That's not what I wanted to do tho. I wanted to makeand send back to the company for payment. I do wish DC had been more "producer" friendly.


You might contact stores in your local area and ask about setting a display by their check out stand.....especially in Western Wear stores.....cow pokes go crazy for stuff like this. Also, if you know anyone that travels the rodeo circuits, that's a great place to sell these necklaces.

Deadra, I'm surprised you stopped! I love making them and make a great profit from them! I can see myself working for them for awhile! At least until I can make a full income from AVON. Were they not selling well in your area or was it just that you really didn't want to have to do the selling part?

I like that so far all I've done is worn mine to get sales. But I think I may start looking into setting up booths if I can get a ton done at once. I mean, I know I can if I wanted to but I really like spending a lot of time on AVON too.

Thanks for the advice on the Western Wear stores. I'll save that one for the future!


I stopped making the necklaces because I wanted to use the buy back program. I did not want to sell them on my own.....didn't want to do the selling on may part.

I did make money tho. My kids were Jr. High and High School age and they sold a ton for me.

You should do well at craft fairs, trade shows, etc. Also, find the mom and pop stores in your area and ask about setting up a display....most will let you.

Have fun with them and good luck!!!

Its amazing that you all seem so excited about Disciple Cross. They left a bad taste in my mouth. I have 50 beautifully made bronze crosses sitting here now, that I hope to sell in my garage sale for $2 each to someone interested in possibly making a little money re-selling them. When I made them about 5 or 6 years ago I didn't want to sell them (I hate sales) and their buy-back program sounded sooooo great to me. However, they didn't want you to send in just one for approval first, they didn't want you to send in less than 50 and then IF anything was wrong w/one or two they mailed the whole batch back to you. You also HAD to buy all of the supplies to make them from them and HAD to bend all of the nails yourself. It sounds so much more lax now....which I think is MUCH better. I wore MY crosses (all different colors) everywhere and not one single person EVER asked me about them, and I live in TEXAS - cowboy country!!! I managed to sell a few through a friend of mine putting some in her store, but it took her a long time getting rid of them. My crosses looked identical to their sample and I followed the cd very carefully and watched it over and over and over to make sure I was making them perfectly. It was a bad experience for me.....BUT
I'm happy for all of you who are making them now with apparently their new program and sounds like you are doing really well. I know I am sounding negative....don't mean to, just relating my experience with making them. I loved making them and just knew I had found the perfect thing for me...just didn't work out that way, however. If you can sell them on your own, that is the best way to go. I haven't heard of them buying any crosses from any of the producers...I've read lots of blogs on the DC's....but those who sell them themselves seem to do really well. Seems like lots of people in Texas just don't care for them....weird, huh? I think they are beautiful and lots of luck (and I mean that sincerely) to those of you who are making them and selling them.

craftinggranny, I'm sorry you had a bad experience. I definitely agree that the buy back program sounds awful and I didn't even want to try it. But lucky for me, I seem to have a good market around here.

For those who are willing to try to sell them themselves ( I know not everyone wants to), this is a good one to try. Good luck to everyone who is already making them and those who are going to try it!smileys/smiley1.gif

I want to try for the buy back program even though I plan to sell some at the flea market. I'm curious to know if I'd pass inspection and I am hoping to be able to make enough to do both and have the buy back program as a back up in case they don't sell at the flea market. Also the flea market is outdoors and closes for the winter.

I haven't made my second cross yet because I spent a couple days searching for the right pliers and then I started working on the Happiness Bell. And today my bookmark kit came.

I'm curious....what is DC's policy now, on when you first get started? Do you send in one cross for inspection or approval (like w/NEC) until you get approved, or a whole unit of 50??? That was my downfall because back then, they made it very clear that when they inspected the unit of 50, IF they found 2 or 3 that were a little bit off they wouldn't even look at the rest and would just return them. NEC checks them all over and will only return those w/problems and pays you for the rest immediately. Then when you fix the problem ones and return them, you get paid for them as well. Well....w/DC, you just might as well toss them, unless you can sell them yourself because there isn't anyway to correct any problems. First of all, the color scratches off of the wire and the wire gets bumpy after wound around the nails...so you can't rewind it..one of my errors was there was a tiny space (and I mean very tiny space) between 2 wires that they didn't like. Another problem on the other cross was that the feet were about the width of a period (.) off and they didn't like that either. My crosses were identical to their sample so that sucked!! I just gave up at that point because the initial investment plus all my tools was well over $100 to get started and hubby kinda frowned upon investing anymore. I like the way NEC does it making one at a time until you get approved. At least you don't have to waste all of the time making 50 just to have them returned. I'm going to follow this thread because its exciting to me to see that some of you are doing so well. I wish I was a sales person....but I'm just not good at it. You don't even see the crosses at craft fairs in my area anymore.....BUT almost everyone I mention them to is familar w/them and just grunt. Strange, huh? smileys/smiley1.gif

You don't have to make 50 at first. In fact they only send enough supplies in the starter kit to make 25 and they instruct you to send between 10-25 for inspection.

After that all 50 must be approved or they send the entire unit back to you. I don't have too high hopes in being approved, but I'm still going to try.

Yeah....your right....you triggered my memory and now I remember sending in a smaller portion at first. Apparently they gave me the impression that I was doing them good enough because I know that I made 50 and sent them in and got them allll back. I was very disappointed because I took pains in making them all like their sample...they are VERY particular. I just wish I would be a good salesperson, which I'm not and could have at least recooped some of my money selling them myself. I had considered selling them on E-Bay, but at the time, there were lots on there for sale apparently in my same situation. Some were made very poorly and they couldn't even sell them for 99 cents each. Some looked like a 6 year old child had made them...they were pathetic.
Have you sent in your first batch of 10-25 yet? I'm curious what they say about them and do they buy those if they are ok? I just know I never got a single cent from them. Thinking back on it, I really don't know WHY I would have worked so hard making more....knowing I didn't want to sell them myself. We live and learn, huh?
I am glad it seems to be working for some of the others of you, it sounds like a super way of making some extra cash. But do you know of anyone that they actually pay for the crosses? From all I read it looks like everyone sells them themselves and most are doing really well that way.

Well I've sent in one each of the bookmark and the bell for inspection. So today I decided to practice on the crosses.

I made two more and I can tell it's going to take a lot more to get it right. I think I'm going to run out of supplies before I can make ten that are good enough for inspection.smileys/smiley13.gif

But I am learning with each one I make. The bicycle glove I bought helps pad the hand that holds the tools (I'm a lefty). A piece of leather helps pad the thumb I use to hold down the end of the wire to the pliers. A light tap with a hammer helps to even any nails that might have slid off kilter during the wiring.

My main issues are with bending the nails exactly 90 degrees, getting the wire wrapped evenly and tightly, not scratching the wires as I work and getting the ends of the wires just right. I see no reason why a little more practice won't solve all these issues.

I went to one of the local craft stores and bought some colored wire (like they send)just to practice. I also bought a box of nails from a local store....also just to practice. I didn't want to use their supplies until I felt that I could make them good. I had lots of trouble at first bending them exactly 90 degrees. I even marked my plyers just where I needed to put the nail to bend the nail and it seemed like that didn't help me much. I watched the video over and over and it seems like each time I did, I picked up on something that I had missed earlier. I remember my hands getting very sore when I made the 50 and that concerned me. BUT, I think once a person does them well and knows what they are doing you can get past the initial soreness....a lot of it is learning the technique. I wish you all the luck in the world and hope that you are successful at this, because it IS a great way to earn some extra money.

My hubby found a square for me to use to see if my angles are 90 degrees, that helps a lot. I also found that the piece of leather helps to pad the needle nose pliers when I'm trying to smooth down the end of the wire, so I don't scratch the rest of the wire. It's really a piece of suede I found at the craft store (next to the stitch-your-own-moccasins kits).

I sure wish I could find the supplies locally. The craft stores would probably have the wire, but I can't find those nails. Not at the home improvements stores, maybe I could check some smaller hardware stores.

My 5th cross actually looked good enough to sell at the flea market, though may not be perfect enough for the buy back. I can only make a couple at a time and then my hand is cramping and my fingertips are sore. Need to get some medical tape for when I'm wrapping wire. But I'll get used to it.

Edited by: MtnHiker

I found the nails in a feed store - you know a farm supply type store. Do you have any Tractor Supply stores around you? Do you know they are horseshoe nails?? and they come in different sizes....be sure to buy the same size that DC sends you, because it will make a difference with the bending. I took one of DC's nails w/me to the store. You can also buy them online. Just do a search for horseshoe nails.
I love this....."Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with all thy might..." Ecclesiastes 9:10 litterly VERY true with bending these nails.... smileys/smiley36.gif smileys/smiley36.gif Actually, in all seriousness.......I love working w/my hands and always have something in them, working on something or other. My husband can't understand why I can't just sit and watch TV...I'm always working on something...I need to tell him that God told me to!!!

Thanks, I called TSC and they have them! One is a half hour drive and one is 45 min. drive. But that's not too bad. I'll be sure and take one with me.

I love that verse, too, cuz I've always like working with my hands. I rarely sit and watch tv either, maybe if I'm exhausted. I'm usually crocheting...that is until I started all these wahm projects!

Tractor Supply store didn't have the right size nails. I went to two of them. And Michaels had a poor selection of the wire needed. But I did finally find the pliers at TSC that are needed to make the top loops. They look exactly like the ones he uses in the dvd except they are 6 in.

I realized that I won't have enough good crosses from the kit to sell at the flea market or send in for the buy back. I decided to go ahead and get some nails at TSC, even though they are longer, and to get some wire at the craft store, even though it's a bit thicker.

That way I can practice until I can make them good consistently before I order more supplies from their website.

Char - how are yours coming along?

MtnHiker...I don't make them anymore. I have 50 sitting here that they returned w/o even looking at them all. Decided they didn't like mine, even though they look exactly like my sample. I'm not a salesperson, so I'm pretty much stuck w/them. Thought I'd put them on e-bay..someone might want to buy them to resell. I made them all copper and I think they look very good. Hubby was really upset when they returned them all after only looking at several (so they said) because he thought I made them really good. OH WELL!!!

Oh sorry, I thought you had recently bought supplies to practice on. But I am confused. You say you sent in all copper ones. But I thought you had to buy the supply pack marked "Buy Back", in order to be able to use the buy back program, and those are a mixture of colors.

Are you sure they weren't sent back to you because you didn't use the right supplies?

Hi all, new here...so far this site has proven to be an invaluable resource though for a lot of questions I had!

Is anyone currently working with DC through the buyback program? If so, what are the turnaround times on payment? I looked up DC on ripoff report and found a few older posts there saying turnaround for payment was horrendous and I'd just like to get some updated information from anyone who is actually working with them now through the buyback.

HI all,


long time reader first time poster... http://www.wahm.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif


Well I just thought I would update you guys on my Disciples cross experience,

I ordered my kit on the 23rd of march, it was completed and shipped on the 24th and arrived on the 26th... now that was fast compared to all the reports I have seen...

As far as the buyback program, to be honest I probably will not try.

I did make my fist cross today... defiantly need some improvement but overall I was honestly surprised I did ok!!! http://www.wahm.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gifa few gaps in the copper wire was about it... (and scraped about 5 nails)


now I need to work on the others and hopefully be better...

Parawire has lots of good copper wire (for practice of course http://www.wahm.com/forum/smileys/smiley17.gif)

Edited by: pm90

MtnHiker....remember I did these 5 or 6 years ago and back then you could make them any color you wanted just as long as you purchased all of the supplies from them. You also had to send in no less than 50 for the buy back program. Just didn't work out for me and I'm really sad about that because I think my crosses are beautiful. I had a garage sale 2 weekends ago and put them out in a basket and only 2 ladies out of about 50 who came by even looked at them and put them back down....didn't sell a single one and I was only asking $3 each. Just cuz it didn't work for me, I hope it works for the rest of you. Lots of ladies are successful w/this company, but haven't heard of anyone doing very well with the buy back program. For all of you crafty salesladies.....go for it....I'm just NOT a salesperson, but had fun making them. Edited by: craftinggranny

Hello all. I am very glad there’s such a forum like this – a sharing of interesting and invaluable opinions and tips from nice women out there! I am a SAHM to a 16-month old healthy boy. Just last night out of the blue, I found DC, i believe that God hasled me there! I am not particularly looking for ways to earn to augment the family’s income but to help support our plan of building a Foundation. My husband and I are right now discerning on buildingour own ministry and foundation. Our ministry will be about seminars/teachings and that will be taken care of mostly by my husband. What I am more passionate about is to finally be able to launch our foundation to help the poor and less-able, esp our little boys and girls get out of poverty and instead, be filled andstay inside the classrooms. God knows we’re neither planning to do fundraisings nor accepting donations. It would be hard to line up fundraising events with the teaching ministry activities. In order to accept donations, we should be a tax-exempt organization which means it’s tedious paperwork and long process would hold us up in starting something beautiful already. So what choices are there leftfor us? It means that in order to carry out our cause – we need to take the finances out from our personal pockets. Wow, that’s something really beyond us – we don’t know how but we leave it all to God. One inspiration though that keeps us going is that because we believe in this business opportunity that my husband has recently joined – with an earning potential that is EXCELLENT…HUGE! God will bless us all generouslyso we can be a blessing to others! God has also another thing in store...if this is His plan - it should work, right? And so DC came my way! These crosses are chic and pretty and Im sure those who will buy will also give themselves a chance to help support the cause! Minus the material costs, all proceeds/sales will benefit our family founation…very excited that I’d sweat out these out to be able to realize things! <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />


Isnt it supposed to be? Ive read a thread re DC way back 4 yrs and it said that it is a ‘scam’ because why pay to get a job, how much could you make out of it (less cross, less money), no such demand and that Pastor is promising $2000/mo. I would say that is not a job but a business opportunity and any opportunity would cost us money, time, effort and talent. My husband went into Quickbooks and cost him money time and persistence to get certified (if he didn’t do it 3 yrs ago, we wont have our company as a twin career servicing small biz and accountants right now). In any business, it is up to our hard work and determination to make it thrive and prosper. Sky is the limit! Pastor said $2K which means we can earn as much as we’d like bec nothing and no one limits us. As WAHM, I believe we have already shifted our attitude and changed our mentality from ‘being salaried’ or that of employee-mentality to entrepreneurial. We are not in the office anymore getting paid by hour and receiving benefits. We choose to work for ourselves, build our business and only by our hard work and determination we can measure our success!


If you’d like to know more about my husband’s new business opportunity, which I encourage you to take a look, please email me at mc3valles@yahoo.com. It’d make a great difference to you and your family! That made us dream and aspire for more esp building a Foundation. Your financial future can start immediately. Re DC, I am committed to work hard on those beautiful crosses to help our poor.


PS: I only knew now that my husband used to make rosaries to give away while he was in the seminary. Wow..God communicates!


GOD BLESS ALL! (today is Divine Mercy Sunday)

Has anyone working on these crosses? Any recent update? Thank you!

Well, I recently sent off for the DC video and starter kit. They really look lovely and sparked my interest. I have been practicing for nearly a week now. I hope to be able to send in some for approval soon. Trying hard to be careful about not scratching the wire and keeping the nails nice and right angled.
Thanks for all the input here.
Ann

Well, I recently sent off for the DC video and starter kit. They really look lovely and sparked my interest. I have been practicing for nearly a week now. I hope to be able to send in some for approval soon. Trying hard to be careful about not scratching the wire and keeping the nails nice and right angled.
Thanks for all the input here.
AnnGood luck Ann! :)

I'm a bit ahead of you on the startup curve, but not much. I'm currently waiting for my test unit results. After receiving my starter kit I watched the video. Set it aside for awhile, thought about it, and watched it again. Then I chewed on it for a day, went back to the video and watched it several times, focusing on the difficult steps, which to me were the bend of the upper nails after the loops were made, the wire wrapping, and the wire end dress-down. I finally felt confident enough to start on my test pieces. I'm very handy and have an intimate working knowledge of tools and materials, but these crosses require a bit of care and patience to successfully produce. Just mastering the proper clamping of the nails prior to winding is a tricky proposition, but will become second nature with practice.

I sent it in 2 weeks ago, but it was delayed by President's Day and the day after that, Mardi Gras. I had called their office to see about getting a replacement starter kit sent and she told me it would probably be in the next day's mail, since all the local post offices are closed for Mardi Gras. It was. She sent an email saying they finally got it, so the delay was the USPS and not them. She said by the end of this week they should be sending out my results. I'm waiting for that before I decide whether their inspection results are realistic, and whether I am going to dive into this program. I will say that I am optimistic about it.

I had read posts on various forums from people who complained about their inspections being too draconian and unrealistic. I got a little worried. Then I happened to glance at a few photos of Disciple's Crosses that people are selling on Ebay. I also read a couple of accounts of new producers who didn't even watch the instructional video through all the way before attempting their first crosses. I came to the conclusion that there are many people out there who are way too impatient and not careful enough. They aren't making the crosses exactly the way shown in the video, and of course, when someone is disappointed about their inspection results where they get only 25% of their test unit accepted, they scream "SCAM!" It's human nature - "You don't like my efforts ....there's obviously something wrong with you" ;)

Judge for yourself. Here's a close-up of the sample cross I got with the start-up kit:

http://convopit.org/public/starter_front.jpg



Now here's a cross being sold right now on Ebay for $6.99 + $2.00 shipping (eek!). Most of the crosses being sold there are probably producer rejects that were sent back for failing inspection. This one clearly is:

http://convopit.org/public/junk_cross.jpg

Here's the ad:
Disciple's Cross Necklace - Purple Color (#736) - eBay (item 250309893759 end time Mar-10-10 06:12:00 PST) (http://cgi.ebay.com/Disciples-Cross-Necklace-Purple-Color-736_W0QQitemZ250309893759QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Def aultDomain_0?hash=item3a47a1de7f)

On quick inspection of the photo I noticed numerous flaws that I have marked with red arrows (starting at the top):

Top cord loops are misshapen and don't match
Wire turns start on the back and end on the front
Scratches in the top segment wire color
Bottom segment wire turns start on the front and end on the front
Scratches in the bottom segment wire color
Bottom cross "feet" don't line up - nail bends inconsistent

The cross is junk ...absolutely horrible! And if I were an inspector I'd certainly reject it. It's clearly not resellable because nobody would want to wear it for free, much less pay for it!

After seeing this and others like it being sold, and reading posts describing others' impatience, I was extremely encouraged. I could then apply the proverbial "grain of salt" to internet forum accounts of how unfair the inspections supposedly were. From what I've seen, people are submitting pretty bad crosses. The example above isn't the only one. Look through the Ebay ads and you'll see several very poor examples like the one above.

I suspect that Disciple's Cross is being fair about their inspections, and there are just a whole lot of people out there who got into the program thinking they could slap together 12 crosses per hour like Pastor John and have them all pass muster. They start with the mindset of dollar signs in their heads, making the crosses as fast as they can, and they ignored John's warning in the video to "Concentrate on quality first ...the speed will come with practice". Sounds like common sense to me. People need to pay close attention and do it EXACTLY like in the video. Slow down ...do it right.

Here's a tip I learned the hard way after ruining three wire sets and possibly causing several rejects in my test unit: Find a wooden dowel or even a plastic ball point pen cap to push down the wire ends instead of trying to use the needle-nose tips. This is the trickiest operation of the whole assembly and is also the fastest way to ruin the cross if you do it wrong. The wire color is extremely delicate, and if the tips of your needle-nose pliers slip off the end of the wire and contact the turns right next to the end or on the other side where the other tool tip is, it'll likely scratch it. If you use a wood or plastic "pusher" tool it won't scratch it

Wow! Capmaster
You really have taken time and effort to put out this feedback. Thank you! I know what you mean about not using the pliers to bend the wire down, it ruins everything if the color comes off. I had to practice also to avoid the tiniest gap between the coils. The top loops are the most challenging part but I am getting the hang of it.
I do have some experience in making crafts and selling so I try to be careful about quality and most importantly I am enjoying making the crosses and hope the message of the cross will impact those who wear it or make it.

Ann

Thank you, ArtisAnn! My pleasure.

On the Disciple's Cross issue ...well, I feel like such a fool now. I was going on and on about the best way to make these crosses, not knowing that there's no way to make them "good enough" for Disciple's Cross to accept them.

I had read with great enthusiasm other posts here and on scam.com about these happy producers who are regularly being paid on time, are having their crosses accepted by DC, and how it has become a good work-at-home job for them.

I had also read accounts crying "SCAM!!" because their crosses weren't accepted. I had seen some very poorly made crosses for sale on Ebay and figured they were just doing them sloppy. MY crosses were almost perfect, except for a few early ones that I suspected would be rejected. So I was confident I would become a successful producer.

Well ....silly me :rolleyes: It turns out that those "scam" posters were absolutely right, and they even took heat for their posts which were nothing more than an attempt to save someone like me from wasting eighty bucks (kit + shipping) like they did. But NOOOOOOOOOooooo ....I knew better. I would make it work. Funny how we see only what we want to see, isn't it?

HAH!!! Every single cross I sent to them were sent back as being not up to snuff. There was not one checklist for each cross, but just one list with all the perceived flaws on it, making it impossible to tell which cross they were evaluating for which "flaw". One critique was "top loops are too large" and "loops must look like mirror images". Well, most of my samples had top loops EXACTLY like the sample, and were actually better because the point ends were centered on the nail they bent down to touch. And most had top loops that were exact mirror images. I took great pains to make sure they were. I even lined up the point ends of the bent nails to the center of the nail it folded down onto Another critique was "top loops should look like teardrops". WHAT?? The training video said nothing of the sort, and showed straight pliers bends on the top loops - one 1/16" down from the end and another just under the first bend, not curved ones :confused: The sample didn't have "teardrop" loops either.

Here's one of my submitted crosses that I had returned to me today:

http://convopit.org/public/blue_front.jpg

I expected at least a few of my later, better ones to be accepted. That would at least tell me that I was catching on. But getting back a checklist with about 30 flaws listed made it clear that they probably never even inspected them. The bags had probably never even been opened. I just wish I had submitted their sample with my unit to see if they'd reject it. I'd bet dollars to donuts it would have been sent back to me too.

Now that I know what I know now, I've made my own "Quality Control" list itemizing my observations about Disciple's Cross:

1. They don't accept your buy-back crosses. They probably can't sell them - just like I couldn't even sell a single one on Ebay for $4.75.

Pastor John says the market is "HUGE" for the crosses, yet all the national Christian bookstore and crafts chains I contacted ahead of time to check into a possible supplier/retailer relationship had never heard of Pastor John, or Disciple's Cross. If he's selling so many of these surely he has already contacted the obvious outlets, right? Same thing for the distributors. Nobody has heard of him. So where is he selling them, aside from bookstores in Slidell? And local places couldn't possibly be selling thousands of crosses per week. Get real.

2. The positive producer testimonials we read on his website and in forums are apparently shills - people hired by DC to post glowing accounts of their experiences. People here at WAHM know there are outfits that will hire people to post in blogs and forums about this or that product. We're seeing the same thing.

3. The money DC makes is on the starter kits and on the supplies you must buy from them. The 25 cross supply kits probably cost them about $5 each after their volume discount from their suppliers. The rest is profit for them. They don't sell crosses. YOU do. They're counting on you getting frustrated, giving up on the buy-back program, and just selling them on your own. The income claims are unrealistically inflated, and if you read the testimonials on the DC website, every single producer whose feedback was posted is selling them independently. There's not a single positive testimonial there from someone in the buy-back program. For good reason - they don't buy them back. They sell starter kits and supplies to you. That's the business they're in, sadly. The claim on their main page of "ABSOLUTELY NO SELLING NECESSARY" is an outright lie.

Yes ...it is too good to be true. The "man of the cloth" has worked quite a profitable little business out of his deception and greed. At least I have the autographed photo of him to look at .....

Do yourself a favor - pass this one by. In fact ...run SCREAMING in the opposite direction if you were planning on using the buy-back program. Save yourself the eighty bucks.

I'm going to probably give New England Crafters a try now. here just HAS to be an honest work-at-home crafts job SOMEWHERE ....right? :eek:

Capmaster, it greatly bothers me when we are scammed by an outfit that shrouds itself in Christianity. Any scam is bad, but the Christian scam is especially offensive to me.

Your crosses are beautifully done. If that one won't pass, nothing will.

Kathy

Capmaster, it greatly bothers me when we are scammed by an outfit that shrouds itself in Christianity. Any scam is bad, but the Christian scam is especially offensive to me.

Your crosses are beautifully done. If that one won't pass, nothing will.

KathyThank you, Kathy :)

Yes, it was particularly disturbing to me, too, when I realized how they do business. I'll admit I was naive and slightly comforted when I first went to their website and saw it was an active pastor who ran the business. I didn't think it would be a scam. I guess that's what makes it especially diabolical - preying on the trust of people like that. I don't consider them "Christians" at all :(

The cross you made does look perfectly good CapMaster ! could you try selling your crosses elsewhere? I know many people do that.

The cross you made does look perfectly good CapMaster ! could you try selling your crosses elsewhere? I know many people do that.Thank you, ArtisAnn :)

Yes, that's what I planned to do today - fire up Ebay Turbo Lister and make an ad for each one, at bargain prices, of course. If I can at least get some of my money back for the test unit I'll be happy. Of course if they don't sell at all, like the one cross I already listed on Ebay, I'll be out even more, with all the listing fees. But at least I will have tried.

I briefly considered submitting a Visa chargeback to my bank for the startup kit, but I don't believe I can do that in good conscience, since I used all the materials. I was angry, but that would have been over the line. I consider it a lesson learned. The total damages: $80 for the kit, $14 for the acrylic ($8 + shipping), $19 for a new set of vice-grips and $5 to ship my test unit. A $118 lesson :( At least I can still use the vice-grips for other workshop projects at home.

As for buying more supplies and making more crosses, I don't think so. I've contacted a whole laundry list of Christian bookstores and distributors on the net and visited a local bookstore (that has a large jewelry section) with samples. I believe Pastor John overstates the marketability of these crosses, but since his program is underhanded and based on untrue claims, it doesn't surprise me that the reception out there was unenthusiastic.

To me the appeal of the program, as he states it, is the buy-back program. If it had turned out to be the way he claims it works, I would have been happy. I'm not a salesman, I'm an engineer. I don't like selling ...at all. The appeal was having a reliable, guaranteed customer - them. Without that I wouldn't be any better off than if I had decided to design and build my own crosses and cold-sell them out there in the world.

I plan to list the test unit crosses today, and I'll let you all know how it goes.

In the interest of fairness, I think I might have been a bit hasty with my "scam" war cry. The jury is still out.

I was reading through the inspector's checklist this morning and on the third page at the top there's an item that I didn't spot yesterday. It's the only check mark on the page. It says "The neck should have between 6 and 9 wraps and an equal number with the arms for uniformity". The line was underlined by the inspector. The key here being "an equal number with the arms". In other words, if the arms have 7 turns of wire, the neck must also have 7. If you look at the blue cross of mine that was rejected (pic above), you'll see that indeed the number of turns are different. Likewise, the sample (pic also above) has the same number of turns.

This is news to me. The training video mentions in passing that the number of turns on the arms will usually end up being from 6 to 9 turns, but NOWHERE does he mention that the neck and arms must have the same number. It's a detail he neglected to mention :rolleyes:

I looked through all my rejected crosses and ...sure enough ...the neck always has more turns than the arms, usually 9 versus 7 for the arms. One cross had 8, but ALL had different numbers. That probably explains why all were rejected.

Do you suppose, Pastor John, that maybe ...MAYBE ...you MIGHT have mentioned this important detail in the training video ....if it wouldn't have been TOO MUCH TROUBLE???!? http://convopit.org/forum3/images/smilies/icon_wallbash.gif

So ..we look at the training video to make sure I wasn't imagining things. Here's a short segment showing the winding of the first arm:

http://convopit.org/public/arm_wind.wmv

Nope. No mention of the arms needing to match the neck.



Now let's look at a still pic of his finished cross (frame grab from the training video):
http://convopit.org/public/train_still.jpg

There are a different number of turns on the arms and the neck, the top loops look exactly like mine that were rejected, with sharp bends on the second bend - not rolled over "teardrop shaped" as the critique said it should be - and the top loops aren't even close to lining up, yet he refers to this cross as "perfect" in the training video. I hate to tell you this, John, but your cross wouldn't have passed inspection the way it's done today. No way. How embarrassing is that? Is this really the best way to train people?

So, to summarize:

I made my crosses exactly as the training video showed me to make them.

All my crosses were rejected.

The training video and the inspection criteria stress different, contradictory points in making the crosses.

Another contradictory point on the training video - it showed him making a sharp second bend when making the top loops, yet the photos of crosses on his site and even the sample, to a lesser degree, show it being rolled down to touch the nail vertical, not bent down with a sharp bend as the training video show. The critique in the inspection list states, and I quote, "Nail loops at the top of the cross should be an upside down teardrop - not a circle or too long". Ummmm ...excuse me? The training video never mentioned an "upside down teardrop". This is another point that was changed on the checklist but not mentioned in the video.[***CHANDLER BING VOICE ON***] Could it BE any more difficult for producers to have their crosses pass inspection? [***CHANDLER BING VOICE OFF***]

So if it is indeed a case of the training video being outdated, I feel that DC dropped the ball in not updating it to reflect any revised quality control criteria. If they are actually an honest and sincere company, then I apologize for calling them greedy, deceptive and scammers. In this case they would only be guilty of mismanagement.

Right now I'm debating on whether or not to adopt the "In for a penny, in for a pound" and see this through to the end by ordering a unit's worth of supplies, using this new requirement of the # of turns matching, and trying hard to make the top loops exactly like the sample. As of right now, I'm undecided.

If I do, and it turns out that all my earlier accusations are true, I will have wasted yet another fifty bucks plus shipping for the supplies, plus shipping for returning the crosses to them, plus another 3 weeks of my life waiting.

If I don't, I may never know if I could have made this work, and I'll kick myself for it. This program appeals to me more than New England Crafters because I'm a man, and working with nails and wire is far more satisfying to me than fuzzy birdie heads, sheep balls and little doggie magnets [***TIM "THE TOOL MAN" TAYLOR VOICE ON***]ARRRRR ....ARRRRRHHHH ...ARRRHHHH!!![***TIM "THE TOOL MAN" TAYLOR VOICE OFF***]

I'll let you all know when I've decided. But for now, to be fair, they might be honest ....just incredibly incompetent on the training side of things.

I can understand the crosses would be more appealing to you than the projects at New England Crafters. I am a woman and am crafting for NEC. There are some projects that involve spackling and painting.

My original philosophy when I invested in my first kit was to only spend what I could afford to lose in this venture. If you can afford to lose another $50 and the time and will regret not giving this venture your 150% effort, then go ahead and do it. If not, then that's your answer.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do. We'll all be interested to hear what you decide to do and how it goes.

Kathy

Thanks Kathy!

Actually, I was being a bit sarcastic about the NEC projects. After all, they're just projects we turn in to them. It's not like they will leak estrogen on my hands and cause my voice to raise, along with an unexplained fondness for Bette Midler movies :D If everyone only worked jobs where they liked the product, I imagine that nobody would be making rectal thermometers or diapers ;) The Paper CD Cases don't seem like too much of a threat to my masculinity. I'm a bit worried about the folded crepe paper, though ....

This morning I was more likely to give DC another shot, but this afternoon I'm thinking NEC might be a better fit for me, given the internal uncertainty at DC.

After I posted my previous post here, I spoke with customer service at DC on the phone, and she at first seemed very apologetic and receptive to my criticisms, but then she started spouting the canned company line about how the critique sheet is the only guide. She was a little vague about the turns count on the arms and the neck being different. She said that one turn difference might be OK - it depends on how "appealing" the overall cross looked. I said "So there is some flexibility?" She replied "Not really". Eauuuu-kayyyyyy ......

Bottom line: the training video is useless and whether the cross is accepted or rejected is completely subjective and at the whim f the inspector. She did promise to mention the numerous inconsistencies to Pastor John in the form of a note pinned to the church door - the only way she can communicate with him :confused: I have images of a Quasimodo-like hermit hanging out in the bell tower there and coming down in the evenings to scare children :D

I'll need to think it over this weekend. Monday I will probably call NEC and ask them about details of assembly. I also PM-ed a sage CD case veteran here for advice.

Have a great weekend, Kathy!

Wow! Pastor Raymond needs to work on his cross making skills.

[QUOTE=Capmaster;2549408]In the interest of fairness, I think I might have been a bit hasty with my "scam" war cry. The jury is still out.

I was reading through the inspector's checklist this morning and on the third page at the top there's an item that I didn't spot yesterday. It's the only check mark on the page. It says "The neck should have between 6 and 9 wraps and an equal number with the arms for uniformity". The line was underlined by the inspector. The key here being "an equal number with the arms". In other words, if the arms have 7 turns of wire, the neck must also have 7. If you look at the blue cross of mine that was rejected (pic above), you'll see that indeed the number of turns are different. Likewise, the sample (pic also above) has the same number of turns.



Cap Master, that is very interesting after posting yesterday I looked at your cross again and counted the nine turns on the top and thought to myself that was probably what was wrong. So am glad to hear that you have discovered where you went wrong.
:)

ArtisAnn - Wrong according to the QC checklist, but "perfect" according to Pastor John's training video. That's where I have a problem with them. They're giving two different, conflicting examples of how to build the cross. When I spoke to her on the phone today she was surprised that the training video showed that. I'm kinda surprised nobody has called them on it before me.

AWWWW come on Capmaster,,,,,,a little glitter in a man's hair wont look to bad....
I too am a women who works for NEC (Hey KCduffer). I just got approved on the CD case Capmaster and its really not to bad. I dont think your manhood would be destroyed if you gave it a try..lol...Its folding, cutting paper and the crepe paper is fairly easy...and no glitter involved.
Anyway, good luck on your crosses.

AWWWW come on Capmaster,,,,,,a little glitter in a man's hair wont look to bad....
I too am a women who works for NEC (Hey KCduffer). I just got approved on the CD case Capmaster and its really not to bad. I dont think your manhood would be destroyed if you gave it a try..lol...Its folding, cutting paper and the crepe paper is fairly easy...and no glitter involved.
Anyway, good luck on your crosses.OK. But if I find myself tastefully color-coordinating my wardrobe, I'm holding YOU responsible, Missy! http://convopit.org/forum3/images/smilies/icon_tapfoot.gif

http://convopit.org/forum3/images/smilies/icon_vhbiggrin.gif

Thanks for the encouragement.

I think I'm done with Disciple's Cross, for several reasons:

1. The percentage (12.5%) that the producers get of the final price DC charges for them retail is a bit too stingy. I make 'em, and they get 87.5% of it? It doesn't take too many rejects in a unit to destroy any reasonable profit I might have made, and I'd basically be working with little or no profit. (NEC gives at least 20% to its producers, for comparison).

2. Their quality control seems too subjective and inconsistent.

3. I don't see how anybody could make crosses that pass inspection in 4 minutes, as claimed in the training video. I COULD make one in 4 minutes but it would look like a Picasso. My best time for a cross was 25 minutes. Assuming I could maintain the same quality and get that down to 15 minutes, and assuming that all pass inspection, that's still only $5/hour - less than minimum wage in my state. Factor in the likely rejects - say 25%, that's $3.75/hour. Factor in the two dips and drying time, we're approaching sweat-shop wages.

4. They don't sell like hotcakes as claimed. I've only been able to sell one for barely more than cost. Selling independently for me would be an exercise in frustration and I'm pretty sure I would make little or nothing. I'm not a salesman.

More power to those who have made this program work - I wish you the best of luck, and I mean that. But it just doesn't seem like something that will work for me.

I think I'll be giving New England Crafters a try now. I plan to call them tomorrow and get more details about the Paper CD Cases. kcduffer has been kind and generous enough to PM me some very helpful tips. Thanks, Kathy!!!!!

This is interesting. I should tell my mother about this.

One point I forgot to make in my last post:

Another reason why it isn't a good fit for me - I've already invested almost $120 (starter kit, acrylic dip, vice grips set, shipping costs) and it would require I invest a further $60 (buy-back supplies for 1 unit + shipping) to attempt to get my first cross accepted. I have made a total of $2.25 profit so far for about 15 hours of my time training and building crosses. I'm just not willing to send them ANY more money.

Two things would have changed my mind about pursuing DC further:

If they had accepted ....just ....one ...cross. This would have told me that it is something I could perfect with time and eventually get them all to pass.

OR

If they had a program like NEC where if your test samples don't pass, they send you materials to try again ....for free.


It's a pretty lucrative business he's running - charge to start, charge to re-try, charge for materials, and pay slave wages.

So I was looking this over. You have to buy the materials and it is 1.00 per cross to make. He sells this in units of 25. He pays you 1.25 for each cross you make and reimburses you the material fee of 1.00 per cross. So it sounds great BUT you have to spend the money to make the money.

If I wanted to make 200 crosses a week to make 250.00 dollars a week I would first have to SPEND 200.00 dollars. I suppose the initial investment would be o.k. if i had it because after the initial buy back I would receive 450.00 the 200.00 reimbursement plus the 250 for may crosses and then just keep sending the original 200 back for supplies and keep making 250 a week right?

He allows you to make up to 400 crosses a week. Now if I took the 450.00 from my first buy back and sent 400 of it back so I could make 400 crosses a week he would pay me the 500 for my crosses (400x1.25) and the 400 reimbursement that would be 900.00 I could send 400 back for more supplies for 400 crosses and I could go on to make 500 a week making the crosses. Right?

Or I could also keep some out and sell them myself at a higher cost for a higher profit has anyone tried this are done it?

if your interested or need more info to answer my post I got my info buy typing disciplescross.com in my browser after reading these threads .

he also says he reimburses up to 5 dollars shipping for every 400 crosses. I don't imagine it would cost much more then that they shouldn't weigh much. what do you think .

what do you think .I've already sounded off in this thread about my experiences with them. But I'll summarize:

1. If they actually did buy back crosses it would be an excellent program. Unfortunately, it seems they are only in the business of selling starter kits and supplies at a HUGE markup. You want to sell your crosses, you need to establish your own contacts in the world of wholesale bookstore and jewelry distributors, or do it the hard way by selling at crafts fairs, flea markets or on Ebay. Expect to sell a few a week this way, but probably nowhere near the wild, unrealistic earnings his website shouts on the top page banner. It just isn't gonna happen.

2. If he legitimately wanted people to produce crosses for him, HE would be providing supplies at no cost for home assembly. You wouldn't be required to buy your supplies. That's probably the biggest giveaway right there :mad:

3. They are in the business of selling starter kits and supplies. Period. You're on your own in the selling arena.

Well Cap master, Although I did not send any in to the Company I have been trying to sell them on my own and see a possibility with that.
I have got a few compliments already it really is a lovely piece.

Well Cap master, Although I did not send any in to the Company I have been trying to sell them on my own and see a possibility with that.
I have got a few compliments already it really is a lovely piece.Good for you! :)

I never doubted a few of them would sell - I sold two on Ebay and my daughter-in-law took my entire test unit to work and displayed them there. She sold three of them for me.

But it wouldn't be on the scale that I consider the minimum to be called "supplemental income" if it's just onesies-twosies sales.

I hope it works for you. They are very nice crosses.

I just purchased my Disciple's Cross starter kit about 2 weeks and ordered extra supplies at that time. I've made about 30 or 40 crosses already, but no matter how careful I am, I keep ending up with gaps between the wire. I watched the video and am keeping the wire tight and low but still can't get it to come out right. I've tried unwrapping that section and re-wrapping it also and still the gap is there. Do any of you have any tips on how to wrap these so the wire is tight and neat? I'd appreciate any help anyone can provide. Thanks! :)

I have found some very useful videos on youtube for these. also on google I searched for
wrapping a disciples cross
found some good info that way too. Sorry I don't have any personal great advice on these. I sold maybe 3 or 4 of them. I usually use them as a way to witness and when someone asks about it, I just take it off and give it to them. I started out wanting to make $$ with these but have found it way more rewarding to use them winning souls for our Lord :0)

If you do some searches there's a lot of blogs out there with info on how to make them and how they sell them and what they charge for them. There's even a site that sells the nails already bent for you although you can not use them for the buy back program (so I've read)

Good luck with your crosses
May God bless your hands and make them very skillful for making these wonderful crosses

Thanks so much for the info. I will check out YouTube and just keep working on trying to get them wrapped more neatly. I'm not sure if I'll have any luck selling them, but if I can't, maybe I'll do what you're doing and use them to witness. Thanks again :D

are you all still making the crosses? i was bidding on a kit on ebay and lost but i would love to see the video he sends wish it was online to vie to see if i could really do it.

thanks

I tried this out about seven years ago now. My crosses that I sent in actually turned out better than my sample they sent me. I was turned down though and didn't bother again. I ended up giving them away to my family members and my kids in the churches youth group.