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I am on the verge again of just throwing the towel in, and really need some support from whoever is willing to take this on.


I am a graphic designer mommy working from home. I do other jobs on the side when I can, but my design job is my baby.


It goes like this...I love receiving work on guru.com, but today made me question what to do in terms of clients. Yes, I have had slow payers, but this one tops th cake.


I took on a project to design a logo, along with several variations of the logo for an online job search site. He was in love with the concepts, and thrilled with the idea of giving something fun and whimsical to compete with the big guys like monster.com.


He was set on what to do and had some trouble in the beginning following the standard procedures clients and workers need to follow during the initial part of the project. He got past that without too much of a fuss.


Then came revision time...this is where I get frustrated...this is a new business, and he doesn't already have an existing logo...but already has a website layout.


In business practice, you generally have a logo and then the site is built around that branding and identity. So now he wantsupteenvariations of the layout of the initial logo because he is having trouble fitting it in the gray column on the left hand side where he is pressed to have this logo.


No problem...I work with him. And finally he thinks he has something and asks for me to start the revision process on the other logos.


Mind you, this work is always uploaded into Guru's Work Room for review, and I had trouble convincing him that I only allow escrow payments at Guru, but he finally agreed(that should have been the red light...but me stooooopid).


So...now he has all of this work sent to him yesterday where he can easily download to his computer from the work room.


Okay, sort of off the subject... I woke up this morning with a nauseating feeling not to open my emails right away (but again, me stoooooopid).


So I opened my email a half hour ago lo-and-behold to find a letter from him saying he had a lot of trouble deciding on what to do, but thinks he wants to take a totally new approach with entirely new concepts because he thinks he wants to be in competition with the conservative boards such as hotjobs and careerbuilder as well, and thinks the approach he took is all wrong.


Isn't this a bit freaking odd that he asks of this once he has all the work where anyone with some sense of how to use Photoshop and Illustratorcan take it and run?


I know I am protected by Guru since he made an escrow deposit, and have submitted an email for mediation with details of this entire situation, but I am in tears because I put an entire month into this project while $200 sits in escrow.


I am on a budget like most of you are, and he actually has the audacity to throw that at me?


These people go to us to save money avoiding the corporate guys...yet, they think we are a money bank and they take advantage of us.


I don't know what to do and I can't afford this anymore...we are taking money out of our savings to live right now...the savings which was the remainder of an investment when we had to choose between selling our house or going bankrupt.


My husband is in school so we can improve our life - so this is a blessing that we can finally do this, I am homeschooling two of our four kids...so going out into the corporate monster-world is utterly impossible. Plus, I don't want to go back there, because they eliminated my job as a Brand Manager of almost ten years when I told them of my fourth pregnancy. They were sneaky doing it, and although there were red lights, EEOC and an attorney couldn't do anything about...but that is another story.


I was mocked and had to choose between being a parent and an employee(you know how vindicitive those women get...they mock moms that want AND NEED to work thinking we can't pull our weight). I can't work with that negativity and harassmentany longer anyway.


My home business is now my baby, but I feel so insulted and slapped in the face by several clients I work with.


I know there are some pretty great clients out there, and I have befriended one just recently after working on her logo...but the ones that take advantage of you seem to overshadow the positive aspects of having this business and the good people that come with it.


I need advice, consoling...something...because I am trapped right now. Maybe if some of you gals have horror stories you would like to share, or maybe let me know that this happens frequently for you...I am just so depressed and have been looking on the board for jobs on the side the past few days...and of course nothing....


Now I am going to go and figure out what the heck to do right now, and if this post doesn't make much sense, it is because I am not in my right frame of mind right now from shock about all of this.


Thanks for letting me vent, and I just want a solid ride for once. Not permanent...I accept the bumps in the road...but some kind of straight path now and again wouldn't hurt.


Take care ladies, and thanks.</TD></TR></T></TABLE></TD></TR></T></TABLE>

You have come to the right place for support! Seems like you've contacted guru about the problem, now I would send those exact same comments to your client.


Doesn't seem like you have much to lose......you sure don't want to work with this guy in the future....nor do any of us I'm sure smileys/smiley11.gif


We've all had these clients that are never happy, too slow to pay, etc., etc.


If you do decide to continue working with him, you need to brand all logos with 'sample' or something across the entire logo so he cannot use them.

Thank you Shannon :)


The thing I fear is I have never received negative feedback at guru.com. And I wonder since I have a mediator involved, if he can still leave me some pretty nasty comments. You know it happens.


They walk on you, and then when you stand up for yourself after going beyond out of your way, and then they get mad at you for doing it and retaliate with poor ratings, etc.


I can't afford that now especially after I invested into a year of service at guru.com. I just hope Guru avoids allowing ratings once dispute resolutions get involved.


Thanks, Shannon...you don't know how much it means to just get a quick 'hang in there'. You are the best :)

Oh man...I should get some coffee and then write...my posts look like an elementary school writing project :)

Wow, I'm so sorry this has happened to you. If you've already done the work per his instructions ( and maybe having his emails or contact messages will help prove your side ) and he has the images downloaded...I can't see how Guru could possibly keep the money from you. If it works out that you get the money I'd specify that that would your last dealing with him. When you're safe with the money in your account, give him a bad review ( Ithink you can add reviews there can't you? ) and let him try to find someone to work with on the new look. Dang, some people.





Yes, I have heard of a number stories from ladies, at other groups I belong to, about clients either expecting things above what they want to pay, changing direction in design and expecting it to be covered by, and part of,the original agreement, refusing to pay once the work the done....etc. It seems alot easier for this to happen on the internet too, as you're not face to face and people find it easier to behave in ways they might not if they were dealing in person. But on the bright side...the majority of people are good and won't take advantage. So think about the ones you've had good relationships with and see what Guru does to protect you....you ( a designer/vendor ) are what keeps them going, don't they get a % of the deal? They wouldn't want to shoot themselves in the foot.


Good luck, you'll be in my thoughts. Keep us posted.

Thanks Kathie :) I will send an update on the resolution.

I'm sorry this happened to you. I hope you get your money. And either don't have any further dealings with this guy (recommended) or tell him you aren't doing any more work without additional payment. And get him to put that in escrow too. Or better yet, can you make him pay upfront?


I have had a couple very difficult clients. But also some great clients. I learned that some people will take advantage and walk all over you if given the chance. So, I'm a little tougher and less trusting now then I was a year ago.


Teresa

Hey Teresa,


I guess I am learning that the hard way. The problem with me is I am not sure how to differentiate between getting a little firmer and being paranoid and distrusting that everyone is out to get something for nothing.


I find myself doing this with pretty much every new client now. Even after escrow or retainer requests are confirmed and agreed to, I wonder to myself it this is going to be 'another one.'


It seems no matter how much I take preventative measures, they still try to sucker their way out of doing the right thing and paying for my time and effort. That is the biggest thing that gets under my skin.


Itis not worth taking legal courses of action since most work done is under $300-500...that is just added stress. I think they know this and that is why they seek work with us little guys instead.


So what do you do to prevent getting taken advantage of, and how do you prevent yourself from acting like you nobody can be trusted? --- I should have been on X-Files: 'Trust No One' --- :)


That's the difficult part of this biz :) Any advice you can give...I am open to hearing.


Thanks again :)

What helped me was to start getting payment up front. If they aren't comfortable with that, I will offer to let them pay 50% and the rest when the site is done. And I make sure to keep control of the website and files, etc. until I get paid in full.


A lot of people are honest, but a lot aren't and I've learned it's just best to not extend credit or trust in business dealings. It's not being paranoid - just protecting yourself against the ones who will take advantage if given a chance.


Hope this helps. :)


Teresa

Thanks Teresa,


That is definitely a sign there when the negotiation of pay comes up and they show signs of apprehension.


Good luck to you and your business, and I will see you around the board :)

We do a lot of work off of Guru as well.


I put it right in my bid that we only take payment through the Guru Escrow Service, so they know going in that is what will be expected. We also will not even start work until they have escrowed the full amount, and have released 50% upfront.


We always write out a project agreement and upload it for the clients approval. Again, until they approve that no work gets done, then if they decide to change the scope of the project part way into it we fill out a Change Order and they have to approve that along with the extra cost for it. We always spell out how many revisions they get for the original bid, so they know if they decide to make major changes later on it will cost them more.


The one thing I don't do is use the Guru Work Room, any web designs, graphics etc., first get watermarked then we upload to one of our servers and password protect and right click protect it. Then we give the client a password to be able to view it and give us feedback.


Depending on the size of the project, a lot of ours are over $2,000.00, we setup a series of deliverables and they make releases of escrow throughout the project. For the smaller ones it is always 50% up front the balance on delivery. If that is a problem then I don't hesitate to decline the project.


Maybe we have just been lucky, but in 8 years doing this we have had our share of picky clients but not one has stiffed us for payment. We have had 2 that we did take to arbitration and won them both, we do keep good records of all communications during the project. We don't move on to another stage until we get a firm sign off on the last stage.


Good luck with this one and just use him as a learning experience. There are a lot more good ones out there than bad.

The funny thing is that I have done everything like you do to make sure I am watching my back. I do upload work to Guru so I have proof that my clients are receiving their work, so they don't try to hold that against me claiming they are not getting their samples.


It is a luck of the draw in the type of business we are in, but it still doesn't make it right.


Thanks so much, Harold, for your advice. I will keep everyone posted with any updates.