posted April 19, 2005 09:31 AM
There is a difference between Tony Robbins (a noted author and motivation speaker of original material) and these canned "for profit" opportunities is about $1500 out of your pocket.
I am amazed at people who still fall for: Stuffing envelopes, craft assembly, Pyramid schemes.
As far as the math, and marketing? *lololol* If you are smart math is the greatest part of your marketing. If you are blowing black smoke in the wind..it means the vote is against you.
posted April 19, 2005 10:03 AM
I'm skeptical because I don't see the prices, or a schedule of seminars/conferences. You are right, there is nothing wrong with personal development seminars, but I believe that when basic pertinent information is not given in the open, you should be wary.
quote:Originally posted by joycejj: The difference is, I wouldn't pay Tony Robbins fees either. I can get his books at the library and read for myself.
posted April 19, 2005 07:13 PM
There is nothing wrong with the geometric progression logic. The fact is that Christianity does follow that growth model. Most of western civilization is christian...but that aside, another thing I notice about all of the gung-ho LLI posts is that they always have the same cult-like response that says nothing but call me so that I can get a couple of my buddies together and convince you that spending thousands on this scam is the only way to make money. You talk about money, but I hear little in terms of profit. Econ 101, Revenue-Cost=Profit. How much profit did you claim on your taxes? Let me guess, if I am interested in a great way to make money I should call or email, right. Also, if I want to make 1000000, I convince 1 person to give me a million, or a million people to give me a dollar, right? Who is the customer for this "product"? I doubt they are millionaires, right? They are desperate people will some money or room on a credit card to spare, right? Isn't the point to convince other people that they need to make the same discission that you did? Are you really able to sell a set of DVD's for $1500 a pop? The sad thing is people would pay that. For a third of that amount I would kick them in the butt, and tell them that it makes them a better person. Then I could have them sign up other people to pay me $500 to kick them in the butt and we could go to Brazil and I could charge twice the room rate to the "members" to teach them how to better convince people to sign up for me to kick them in the butt. I think I have a new product for LLI. Oh wait, that is what you are doing already, but you are not exactly *kicking* them in the butt first are you? I hope you kiss your clients first.
quote:Originally posted by loganalexkatie: I'm skeptical because I don't see the prices, or a schedule of seminars/conferences. You are right, there is nothing wrong with personal development seminars, but I believe that when basic pertinent information is not given in the open, you should be wary.
I guess I don't know what you're referring to. All the information about prices and locations for the next scheduled events are on the website. Further, we do 29 live presentations each week that detail exactly what the products cover and what their cost is.
If you'd like to attend a guest presentation, feel free to contact myself or any other LLI on this board.
quote:Originally posted by joethered: There is nothing wrong with the geometric progression logic. The fact is that Christianity does follow that growth model. Most of western civilization is christian...
No, it doesn't. Your previous point attempted to illustrate that Liberty League wasn't a viable opportunity because geometric progression would soon outrun the population of the world. As I illustrated, that only works on paper. No one is suggesting that anyone needs to "find ten who will find ten, etc."
quote:You talk about money, but I hear little in terms of profit. Econ 101, Revenue-Cost=Profit. How much profit did you claim on your taxes? Let me guess, if I am interested in a great way to make money I should call or email, right.
Only if you're really serious about an answer. But, if you're interested in someone writing long soliloquys here for your benefit, I guess you could just continue to wait.
As Confucius says, "Man who stand on mountain with mouth open waits a long time for roast duck to fly in." Maybe you'll get lucky.
For the record, we did $5,000 personal profit in our first week in the business. Since then we've actually achieved that in a single day.
No point in replying to the rest of this post. Anyone else got any legitimate questions?
posted April 20, 2005 06:37 AM
Did you actually make $5000 a day and report that on your taxes? I noticed that you "evaded" that part. And your "business" also looks good on paper but the same problem you have with the Christianity example is the problem with your business. And what about the question of your client base. Do you need to consult your upper management of the cult to get an answer since it did not mesh with the normal cookie cutter answer you give to the desparate people that buy into your cult. Evading is the best way to avoid answering questions that you don't like the answers to huh? Here is a quote for you since you like them, "A sucker is born every minute"
You know Tony loves these easy to win "debates". You must have been burned pretty bad to have such a negative attitude. You KNOW many people are making money with Liberty, Coastal and Emerald. And that makes you so jealous you can hardly stand it so you make groundless accusations. Please continue. I am sure you are handing Tony at least one sale on a silver platter.
posted April 20, 2005 01:49 PM
I hope that gives him a sale, it is nice to know that people are still dumb enough to fall for this sort of thing. Personally, I would never invest money in something with this many red flags. If you have to convince me that it is a good idea, it is probably not. Are you guys also Scientologists? You are very good at evading questions and not really answering anything. The question still stands-what is the pyschology of the customer base and how much income did you actually claim on your taxes. Very simple questions which I am no doubt sure that you will answer. Since your sales require that you have desperate people willing to give you all of their money for a chance to learn how to make money, I am sure you will not approach saturation. The sad thing is that they do not realize how you are leading them on until they have to file bankruptcy because they are so far in debt. What makes me mad is not that I have been burned, since I work in a legitimate field, but that you guys prey on the ignorance and desparation of people that don't understand how you guys are milking them. Once again, I hope you can live with yourselves, but you probably sold out your concience long ago. I hope your kids don't get taken like you guys like to take other people. Answer the questions if you dare-tax paid last year and pyschology of your customer base.
posted April 20, 2005 02:38 PM
I will concede that I sound a little upset, but I promise this is the last thing I will write, unless I need to rebut. Here is my main problem. Suppose I am a candle maker. I sell 10 candles for $10 each, make $100. I take away the $5 per candle of cost, and poof, I have $50 profit. I am not making money off other people learning to make candles from me. I am not having seminars in tropical locations at twice the going rate, I am selling candles that I make. There are no other competitors that I taught, just me. Now, if I understand LLI, the first money that I make is selling people the $1500 self-help system. Now, if you can sell that product, I have no problems with your company. But, that is not where the money is. You have to sign up other people to get the real cash. That means that if you sign up 5 people, you get the first 2 sales of each of those five people. The downside is that now there are 6 people trying to do the same job. As a candle maker, I did not sign up anyone. I keep getting to sell my candles. The people that are making the money are the ones that set up the meetings. They want more people to sign up because they are making the cash off the members. So, those of you that are thinking about LLI, come up with your own self help thing and get some tropical location to have sales meetings at. Instead of being the one to pay to go to the meeting, you can be the one to organize the meetings and get the cash that the people at the top of LLI get. That is the dirty little secret that gets you $5000 a day-sign up 10 suckers a day to go to a meeting that costs $100 a person and charge $200 a person. I guess it is like the candles after all, but I am more up front about my product. So, make your own seminars, stop giving your money to LLI seminars. That is the way to get rich. Peace.
posted April 23, 2005 03:05 PM
I agree it is hilarous, the only ones defending this opportunity are distributors
And no one else cares.
Plus, to the best of my knowledge, anyone is welcome to give an opinion unless the moderators say different.
Why is it the answer to a alternative explanation or idea is first to put the person down and discredit (or try to) and second to telll them to leave?
I do not believe the claims put forth in this discussion by any distributor that has posted about their involvement with it.
And before anyone gets involved I hope they do their homework and not get information from a distributor, particularly those involved with this thread.
I have not seen anyone in here add any value to WAHM but come in only to promote or defend their opportunity.
So that alone is suspect in my book of opportunities.
quote:Did you actually make $5000 a day and report that on your taxes? I noticed that you "evaded" that part.
Actually, I never saw the question asked. But, yes, everything I earn goes through the books and every course I sell is on the ledger as $520 as "cost of goods sold".
Wow. Just like a real business. Imagine that.
quote: And your "business" also looks good on paper but the same problem you have with the Christianity example is the problem with your business.
No, actually, you're the one who had trouble with the concept of "theoretical saturation". It's fine for hypothetical discussions but, in a real economy, saturation rarely exists except in very small geographical situations.
quote:And what about the question of your client base.
What about them?
quote:Evading is the best way to avoid answering questions that you don't like the answers to huh?
I'm still waiting to see which questions I've apparently "evaded". LOL
quote:Originally posted by slodki: If anyone could answer my question above, (i also made a new thread in this section) i would greatly appreciate it.
Hello, I used to be with LLI and they are only in the US and Canada unless something has changed since Oct. I left LLI and went to Emerald Passport in October and have had great success in my business and am so glad I made the move. If you liked what you saw with LLI then I know you are going to love Emerald Passport and Emerald Passport can be run from any country. We have many successful associates in Australia. Here are a couple websites for you to look at. www.udeservethis.infowww.3dcity.com/7/sivret Have a look and feel free to email me with your questions. Shari emeraldbiz@aol.com
quote:Hello, I used to be with LLI and they are only in the US and Canada unless something has changed since Oct.
Hmmm...I think you may have been under a misconception there.
Liberty League International has associates in Puerto Rico, Australia, UK, Mexico, Canada, and dozens of other countries. We're not limited to North America.
quote:Originally posted by TonyRush: [QUOTE] Liberty League International has associates in Puerto Rico, Australia, UK, Mexico, Canada, and dozens of other countries. We're not limited to North America.
I thought LLI has limited us to just North America, at least that is what I am told by my Summit Advisor. I have made good money with LLI here in the states but your telling me the ballpark is much bigger Tony, If i can promote in Australia, UK and such I will
posted May 03, 2005 09:48 PM
A good friend of mine is working this "business" with everything in her power. Rather than getting ahead, they are falling further and further behind, like so many people in scams such as this one.
When asked what products they sell she told me this.
1. 90 day self development course 2. motivational conference (Cancun) 3. a conference where you learn how to handle all the money were supposed to be making (Whistler)
So basically LLI is selling the opportunity to sell nothing. Of course the people who are making money are going to tout the business...but lets not forget the myriad people who are struggling even though they are working their ARSES off to make this work.
posted May 04, 2005 01:27 PM
Let me tell you what Tony cannot seem to conjure up. The reason there is no concern for saturation is that 98% of the people that get involved with LLI never even qualify at beyond freedom level. Those are the hard facts aren’t they Tony. Therefore the company never really grows. The rate of attrition keeps it stagnant therefore no saturation. Good line of questioning by Joethered. I can’t tell you how many people we talk to on a weekly basis that have been involved with LLI and have spent a fortune to get nowhere. Do you want to know why? The people at the top have the lead capture down. It takes a lot of money to get leads. It takes a lot of leads to get people to find someone to sign on to a pie in the sky deal. This is not the problem I have, success in any business takes some form of time and money investment to make it work. The primary objections that I have to LLI is they don’t disclose the type of capital investment it requires and that they blow sunshine up peoples wazoo in regards to how much money everyone is supposedly making. Several months ago my husband and I joined Liberty League. We terminated our relationship because we realized the only way to become successful was riding on the backs of others that failed. In order to make the money they are talking about you would be required to sign a number of people that you know are going to fail…. So let me ask you this, “if you take money from people that are certain to fail,” are you being dishonest? Is it thievery through deception? Is it a way you want to make your living? Will you find someone that will become successful if you bring a number of people in? The answer is absolutely. But they will be successful at taking money from people who are going to fail as well. An example of this was an elderly couple of retired school teachers on a pension that we had come across. They were considering LLI and just thought that people would sign up if they got involved. If you were to take their money according to our ethics you are stealing. I believe that everyone should be educated fully as to what the opportunity entails before they get involved. This is what the cost for us and we believe what it would cost anyone that wanted to become “successful” We sent a hard earned $1500.00 to buy the beyond freedom program and started to do advertising on the internet via bidclix, overture, google ad words, and vmp. We were investing probably about $1000.00 a month. We took out a newspaper ad that went into 118 newspapers in the Yukon and BC territories. Started to do a flyer campaign and spoke with several people in our warm market. We bought real time leads. We built a web site for lead generation because theirs had so many gramatical and spelling errors that it could not be used. Maybe they were trying to dumb it down. We subscribed to a marketing website called quicklister, got an 800 number, subscribed to their conference call service, Participated in training calls started the Beyond Freedom Program. Both of us Working 8 to 10 hour days with the goal of financial independence. We worked vigorously to get this thing off of the ground. Just to qualify our own ability my husband has been a top earner in various sales organizations over the past 15 years, so he is no slouch. We were accumulating a number of leads and my husband knew we could get people involved, but here was the quandry. If we were working this hard and we had the types of resources available to us, and the ability to sell, then the average Joe that was scraping together the money to make it happen would never succeed. That would mean we were literally taking their money, knowing they were going to fail. Helping them into a bigger hole than they were already in. My husband found himself dissuading people and then realized that if he did get someone involved that was successful, they would likely not be as scupulous as he was and it was therefore perpetuating the con. Anyway I hope that answers some questions for you. If you have any additional questions you can e-mail me at caryn@gelonfire.com If you would like to see what were all about you can go tour website at www.gelonfire.com and look at the team page.
quote:Wabun said: When asked what products they sell she told me this.
1. 90 day self development course 2. motivational conference (Cancun) 3. a conference where you learn how to handle all the money were supposed to be making (Whistler)
So basically LLI is selling the opportunity to sell nothing.
Sounds like you're contradicting yourself. You just listed the products and then claim that no products exist.
For clarification, our Beyond Freedom Home Study Course is the primary product that we market. It's a 90-day home study course focused on personal development. It includes a DVD, CDs, workbook, journaling system, goal cards, etc. If you're actually looking for information instead of just repeating an uneducated opinion, you can get all the information at http://www.libertyleague.com/start
The other products are live events. The Liberty conference is a 4-day event that focuses on the information taught in the home study course. (You can see highlights of our recent event at http://www.therushes.net/cancun/.
The Summit conference is a 5-day event that's focused on teaching you how to get your money to work for you. Both these live events are always held in exotic parts of the world (Bahamas, Fiji, Athens, Puerto Rico, Hawaii, etc.)
Past speakers have included Bob Proctor, Patrick Combs, Randy Gage, Andy Andrews, Michael Losier, Doug Wead, Bill Phillips (founder of Body-For-Life) and many more.
I hope that clarifies for those who are looking for real information,
posted May 04, 2005 07:59 PM
Caryn, wow....that's quite a story. No wonder you're bitter about it all.
But, let me ask an honest question, if I may: how is it that I started just like you did, bought the Beyond Freedom course, got the Prolink account, ran ads, generated leads....
...in other words, I did everything that you did (for less money, I might add...)
...and I got qualified in my first 5 days and earned $15,000 my first month in Liberty League?
I'm not being facetious. That's a legitimate question.
How do you explain people like my new guy Steven who took about 10 days to get qualified but has now earned about $2k a week since then? Or Tony Paul who made four phone calls, put ONE person onto a guest presentation and they signed up that night and bought both the Beyond Freedom course AND their Liberty ticket for Puerto Rico?
All bashing aside...can you explain this? Because it sounds to me like you guys had a HECK of a time trying to build a business. But, at the same time, I see LOTS -- and I mean LOTS - of people who get qualified quickly and start putting money in their pocket right away.
I'm one of them.
What's your thoughts? And try to hold the hostility to a minimum if you will. I'm really interested in hearing your thoughts on this question.
Could you please elaborate more on some of the numbers in this business so I can better understand it?
What do you spend a week on advertising?
Given 100 click on your add: How many requests do you get that you need to contact? How many of your contacts call the confence call? How many confence callers call you back? How many sales do you make on those call backs?
This would provide us all a way to understand some of the costs and time needed per sale?
posted May 05, 2005 01:32 PM
Good questions. I'll give you a ballpark figure that's been true for me no matter WHAT I'm marketing.
What most people won't tell you is that MLM/directsales/network marketing is about a 5% business. It's like opening alot of oysters to find a pearl.
And that's been true whether I was marketing Liberty League International for $1,500, Mentors In Motion for $500, LifeForce for $150 or a weight loss company for $50....the ratios are usually pretty close.
Unfortunately, most MLMs pay so little that the pearl doesn't give you much money when you find it. And it's easy to get discouraged when it takes you 30-40 prospects to find a serious person....and then when you find them, you only earn $20-30.
So, with that said, here are the numbers that have been true for me no matter what I was marketing. These are very approximate.
Assume you have 50 people who have asked you for information. (This is the part that most people don't know how to do...they spend their time LOOKING for prospects. We, on the other hand, know how to generate far more prospects than we have time to talk to.)
Out of the 50, you'll probably manage to actually speak to about 35 of them.
Of those that you speak to, you'll probably eliminate about 10-15 of them as not being as serious as you or not being qualified. (No communication skills, looking for a job, etc.)
Of the 10-15 that attend one of our live weekly guest presentations (we have 29 weekly), not all will listen to the entire call and some will not be courteous enough to talk with you afterwards. Thus, about 5 will qualify for your time.
Of the five, about 2 will actually get started with you.
Of course these are just general numbers and someone else's might be much better. Or, if they're not following the system and they're trying to reinvent the wheel, it might take them longer to get the same results.
But, here's the thing: if you sell just two courses per week.....that's $100,000 a year. And that's not a bad income working from home for 15-20 hours.
When you also consider that about 1/3 of those people will purchase other Liberty League products, the profit is quite alot larger than you can make in any first year in MLM.
Out of the first six people who bought the Beyond Freedom Course, TWO of them also bought a ticket to attend a Liberty event and ONE bought a ticket to our Summit conference.
So, the potential earnings are actually quite alot higher than the initial profit you make at the time of sale.
I hope that helps you!
Tony Rush
P.S. By the way, for the record, we spent about $500 on marketing our first month, mostly in leads and pay-per-click advertising. Nothing major. Not a bad investment when you consider that we made quite alot more than that in profit.
posted May 06, 2005 06:16 PM
What we find from the Boards are a saturation of information often ending in cognitive or information overload. What we need to focus on is not what we already know.
So what do we know? Well, for starters Liberty League International is a great opportunity for someone to capitalize on the Internet's hottest selling product. No I am not talking about the Beyond Freedom Home Study Course. I am talking about "information" and the general public's penchant and need for "information".
Self Improvement, self help, and Self motivation, all meaning the same thing is a very big and profitable industry.
46 Billion Dollars. So if we consider one person's share of 46 Billion dollar Industry to be .00001 that is 460,000. Rather modest you think?
Well how do you come remotely close to 460,000 Dollars? This is a question Liberty League and Tony Rush can't answer or will not answer for you.
As far as the training from Liberty League International is concerned I must comment as no one really does. The training is sub-par at most, and this is not Liberty League's fault but more of your Sponsors lack of imagination and research.
Liberty League was put together 5 years ago maintaining protocol of it's No Selling, Telling, or Explaining for far too long.
It was these methods that I stood away from that have made me a six figure earner, and every other 6 Figure income earner in the business. Think about it, if there were really no selling, telling, or explaining Tony Rush would not have taken over the Message Board, put together a Blog, "Ask him to teach you how" record the event, plaster it online and say he is not selling or telling anything.
What he has put together is a theatre of subliminal messages. Genius absolutely but the truth is it would hurt his bottom line to show you how to make 15, 20, or 30 thousand a month because (when you get qualified) you are now his competition.
So what are the methods to making it successful in Liberty League? Well to begin with we need the right frame of mind, secondly you need to know a little about these things listed below. This is not taught on the training calls but more so learned on your own after extensive research and finding the right people. The concepts listed below are so vital yet it amazes me how it’s not taught throughout the organization.
1st Website promotion, SEO, Online Marketing, Lead Sources 2nd How to sale without selling exactly what Toney Rush and I are doing. 3rd Posturing and establishing yourself as the Authority. 4th Interpersonal communication development. Tony writes a hell of an article, hmmm point made. 5th Transition from being risk-averse to risk-seeking. When you seek risk you accomplish more than you ever dreamed. When you risk nothing, you accomplish nothing in return. 6th This is a Business, should be treated as such. When you understand that the more motivated you will grow everyday to make it a successful business.
Now I apologize to anyone who found this information overload but I would think it to be far better than decoding information through 2 or three pages of irrelevant topic distorting conversations.
Anyone wishing to get into more detail on how my teachings and technologies can be used and new ones exploited to make this an even greater opportunity may contact me below.
Gabriel Osorio Liberty League Independent Associate 860-523-5687
Otherwise, may God Bless and show you the right opportunity with the right sponsor
quote:It was these methods that I stood away from that have made me a six figure earner, and every other 6 Figure income earner in the business. Think about it, if there were really no selling, telling, or explaining Tony Rush would not have taken over the Message Board, put together a Blog, "Ask him to teach you how" record the event, plaster it online and say he is not selling or telling anything.
If you're a member of Liberty League, you should understand the basic concept of "no selling" means that there's no need to engage in the tactics that most people equate with "selling". Such as pressure, convincing, persuading etc.
There's quite a large difference between hard core sales tactics (which Liberty League does NOT endorse) and "promotion" which is what any smart marketer does.
As for "recording the event and plastering it online", you're mistaken. If you're referring to the video at http://www.therushes.net/cancun/ that's simply a highlight of some of our recent trip to Cancun. No proprietary information was recorded and much of the video is simply a look at the quality of the event that Liberty League produces.
Personally, I haven't found the training to be "sub-part" at all and am a bit surprised to find that you do. (I can't help but wonder how effective it is to criticize a system that you're trying to promote. ) Nonetheless it seems to be working wonderfully well for the thousands of people who use that training to produce impressive incomes.
posted May 06, 2005 10:51 PM
Caryn, wow....that's quite a story. No wonder you're bitter about it all. But, let me ask an honest question, if I may: how is it that I started just like you did, bought the Beyond Freedom course, got the Prolink account, ran ads, generated leads....
...in other words, I did everything that you did (for less money, I might add...)
...and I got qualified in my first 5 days and earned $15,000 my first month in Liberty League?
I'm not being facetious. That's a legitimate question.
How do you explain people like my new guy Steven who took about 10 days to get qualified but has now earned about $2k a week since then? Or Tony Paul who made four phone calls, put ONE person onto a guest presentation and they signed up that night and bought both the Beyond Freedom course AND their Liberty ticket for Puerto Rico?
All bashing aside...can you explain this? Because it sounds to me like you guys had a HECK of a time trying to build a business. But, at the same time, I see LOTS -- and I mean LOTS - of people who get qualified quickly and start putting money in their pocket right away.
I'm one of them.
What's your thoughts? And try to hold the hostility to a minimum if you will. I'm really interested in hearing your thoughts on this question.
Thanks, Tony Rush
Well Tony I'm guessing that you gained quick success by cross recruiting from one of your many other previous businesses. I have no factual proof of this and am only speculating. But you did ask how I thought you did it. Not if I knew how you did it. I will go on record again to say that I do believe that there are people that can make money, I just happen to know 98% of the people will not even qualify.
All I can say is that for every Steven and Tony that make a couple of sales right out of the blocks there are 98 other people who end up questioning why they didn't make it. You usally don't find them here because ther off licking there wounds and trying to glue their financial lifes back together. You may think that I am one of those people but I can assure you I am not we quit this because of the reasons I have listed in my previous posts. My husband and I have been extremely successful at our new opportunity and have sponsored over 40 people in the last 60 days. Most of them on their way to building a business. We work with them all extensively and are as committed to their success as they are. I also have to tell you Tony I have come accross so many people that have misquoted what they make with LLI. I am not saying that you do but I do know quite a few that do. You know posturing and all. Just to end on that note. My only goal with these posts are to let people know the other side of LLI so if they choose to proceed with it they at least know the rest of the story.
quote:Well Tony I'm guessing that you gained quick success by cross recruiting from one of your many other previous businesses. I have no factual proof of this and am only speculating. But you did ask how I thought you did it.
I wish I had cleared that up for you in an earlier post. One of the things that we definitely did NOT want to do was to get qualified and make a bunch of money by simply hauling over people from a previous business. My thought was "If it works, it has to work for anyone who follows the system, doesn't re-invent the wheel and who uses the product to adjust their mindset".
So, we didn't market to our previous organization until we'd already earned five-figures. Even today, I haven't made any large attempt to recruit from that group of people. However, I have enrolled a few people (perhaps 3-4) who contacted ME and asked about our new venture.
So, based on your answer, are you saying that I just happen to be one of the 2% who "can be successful"? But, many of my team are qualified and earning money as well. Are the part of this exclusive 2% too?
quote: I just happen to know 98% of the people will not even qualify.
Are you speaking facetiously or do you have some support for that statistic?
quote:All I can say is that for every Steven and Tony that make a couple of sales right out of the blocks there are 98 other people who end up questioning why they didn't make it.
Again, I have to question the numbers you're throwing around because it sounds like you're stating a statistical fact when I suspect you're just pulling a number out of thin air.
However, let me ask you this question: what percentage of people join Melaleuca and enroll six people? Tahitian Noni? Agel? Vitamark? Mannatech?
If you're suggesting that "most" people who join Liberty League aren't going to become millionaires, I'd agree...but that's an observation of human nature, NOT a criticism of Liberty League or any other home business.
quote:You usally don't find them here because ther off licking there wounds and trying to glue their financial lifes back together.
I think that's a bit of a dramatization. They're so busy being crushed by the weight of their own failure that they cease using message boards?
quote: My only goal with these posts are to let people know the other side of LLI so if they choose to proceed with it they at least know the rest of the story.
Or, to be more accurate, they'll know the rest of YOUR story. Think about it logically: you're saying that not everyone that enrolls will have my experience. Doesn't it also stand to reason that they won't necessarily have yours either?
Absolutely. Why? Because anyone's experience is exactly what they make of it. Despite my fast results in the business, I didn't do nearly as well as my sponsor who had never been in a home business before. Certainly I didn't have HIS experience....but I'm not complaining about it or trying to criticize the company because two people didn't have the same results.
The fact is that ANY home business requires work. And that's just more than some people are willing to do.
I had an opportunity to work with Dayle Maloney several years ago. One of his favorite quotes that applies here is this: "Most people quit before payday".
It happens. But that says more about them than about the business they were in. How else can you explain those of us who are making killer money by simply following the system?
quote: "One of the things that we definitely did NOT want to do was to get qualified and make a bunch of money by simply hauling over people from a previous business. My thought was "If it works, it has to work for anyone who follows the system, doesn't re-invent the wheel and who uses the product to adjust their mindset".[quote]
Tony Tony Tony, with all due respect, I don't believe for a moment that you set any limitations on how you would get yourself qualified based on any ethical theories or noble ideas. Spare us the attempt at placing yourself on a moral platform...it simply doesn't fly.
[quote]So, based on your answer, are you saying that I just happen to be one of the 2% who "can be successful"? But, many of my team are qualified and earning money as well. Are the part of this exclusive 2% too?[quote]
I don't know Tony you tell us. You mention a person here and there who is experiencing a measure of success but in order for you to be as successful as you claim to be, there need to be a lot of people that are involved in LLI through you. Where are they? Hearing about one person who is benefitting from the "system" doesn't solve the math problems in a lot of peoples heads. My husband and I talk to at least 6 people a day from LLI-either involved or considering getting involved. What we hear from the ones involved is distrurbing and I will elaborate on that in a moment. What we hear from those considering getting involved is "something doesn't add up". This is exactly MY POINT. In order for there to be such massive success, the numbers of LLI associates would have to grow at an explosive rate. In 3 weeks we were told the same exact numbers. Our deduction from this is obvious-the rate of attrition (failure) cancels out the rate of growth. The sad thing about this is that it doesn't mean there are equal numbers on both sides. Unfortunately it takes dozens of people to make one person successful...in other words for the numbers to stay stagnant it means that people are failing in far greater numbers than people are succeeding. You see in a company like Agel, we don't succeed by bringing people in as you do at Liberty League. We ONLY succeed if they are successful as well. WE don't take their first two successes and put them in our own pocket. The very fact LLI is structured this way makes me wonder.
[QUOTE] I just happen to know 98% of the people will not even qualify.[quote]Are you speaking facetiously or do you have some support for that statistic?[quote]
The fact that you are even asking that leaves the impression that we are closer to the truth than you'd ever admit. It's math Tony, simple and very basic math.
[QUOTE]All I can say is that for every Steven and Tony that make a couple of sales right out of the blocks there are 98 other people who end up questioning why they didn't make it.
Again, I have to question the numbers you're throwing around because it sounds like you're stating a statistical fact when I suspect you're just pulling a number out of thin air.
quote:
Again, math Tony, math.
[quote]However, let me ask you this question: what percentage of people join Melaleuca and enroll six people? Tahitian Noni? Agel? Vitamark? Mannatech?[quote]
This one I have no problem addressing. Depending on the timing (how old was the company when you joined) will factor into this. Getting in to a new company you will have a greater inevitability of getting people involved simply because it is new and most people haven't been approached. It is common knowledge that those who get in early and work hard have the greater chance of success on a financial level. One thing to remember however is that with companies like the ones listed above, people get involved for different reasons. There are real products involved, products that have daily health benefits and that are renewable and or consumable. This is a very important point. A person getting involved with Tahitian Noni, doesn't necessarily fail unless they fell short of a financial goal. Some get involved because they want to use the product and if they make some extra money in the process, great. I doubt ANYONE buying a 1500 "self improvement" program feels that way, let alone the people that buy the 7,000 and 12,000 conference tickets. (hardly on my list of "most desired ways to spend my vacation time and money") To even use those examples, makes me question whether you really think before you type or operate from a knee jerk reaction to defend a system that has given you some success- success that will end abrubtly the minute you stop recruiting, whereas the residual income built within these other companies will go on and on as people get attached to the products and continue to use them. I do understand your commitment to these boards Tony as I too would be concerned about people like us...LLI's house of cards is not stable and you know it as well as I. A quick call to the Better Business Bureau says it all.
[quote]If you're suggesting that "most" people who join Liberty League aren't going to become millionaires, I'd agree...but that's an observation of human nature, NOT a criticism of Liberty League or any other home business.[quote]
Actually Tony, it is a criticism of LLI and any other business or person who advertises that a person WILL become wealthy by following a "simple system". When working within Agel, my husband and I lay it out honestly. We do not guarantee that anyone will be able to achieve the success we are experiencing, but we do guarantee to give them every single tool we are using at the same cost that we are incurring. We also spend hours and hours with individuals strategizing, training and helping them to find the best ways to use their time and money. We are there every step of the way helping them to build their business. What commitment do you or other LLI'ers have to those under you once they have passed you their first two people. Based on the structure of the business I'd say absolutely none and to quote one person from LLI that responded to a letter from a person on our team (who did not enroll with him)"other peoples success or failure is of no consequence to myself" I can assure you this is not the attitude within Agel or any other company that plans on being around for the next 20 to 40 years.
[QUOTE]You usally don't find them here because ther off licking there wounds and trying to glue their financial lifes back together.
I think that's a bit of a dramatization. They're so busy being crushed by the weight of their own failure that they cease using message boards?
quote:
We might be right as well as you. But I still stand firm on when people are given accurate information and a set of facts as opposed to lies, they have a greater chance of succeeding whether in a grand fashion or on a more moderate level. I am very intelligent and even discuss on every call I make that as with all businesses, MLM's are no different-10%of the people make most of the money. I'm not here to dispute that- I agree with it. My issue is with the lies, the manipulation, the misrepresentation of what is involved and what it takes.
[QUOTE] My only goal with these posts are to let people know the other side of LLI so if they choose to proceed with it they at least know the rest of the story.
Or, to be more accurate, they'll know the rest of YOUR story. Think about it logically: you're saying that not everyone that enrolls will have my experience. Doesn't it also stand to reason that they won't necessarily have yours either?
quote:
Actually Tony because we speak to so many people on both sides, we do see a pattern and our experience is certainly not uniquely ours.
[quote]Absolutely. Why? Because anyone's experience is exactly what they make of it.[quote]
I agree with you in part but only if a person went into the venture with a clear understanding of what is involved. Trust me my husband and I did not undergo a miraculous transformation which made us more effective with Agel than we were with LLI. We were led to believe LLI took two or three hours a day when in fact it requires full time efforts and then some from most people. We knew going into Agel that our financials goals could not exceed the effort we were willing to expend in the beginning. Again, in a solid and well structured Network Marketing business the effort put in on the front side will determine how quickly you reach your financial goals and also allow you to work less as your company builds momentum. With LLI your momentum STOPS the minute you stop expending energy.
[quote]The fact is that ANY home business requires work. And that's just more than some people are willing to do.[quote]
Then why does almost every single ad regarding LLI make claims on how little a person needs to work to become wealthy? If I were you I wouldn't even bother trying to wiggle out of that corner because I guarantee you, you can't back track from such a contradictory comment. For any of you reading this who are undecided or confused go look at all the quicklister sites (something you are directed to join as soon as you enroll) and see how many ways a person can claim LARGE income for LITTLE effort. This is the stuff that disgusts me and you Tony are not going to single handedly offest the reality of LLI.
[quote]It happens. But that says more about them than about the business they were in. How else can you explain those of us who are making killer money by simply following the system?[quote]
I say you are very lucky and obviously more capable then us when it comes to not concerning yourself with the people you bring in.
In conclusion Tony, you cannot defend something with well crafted sentences and thoughts when everything being advertised about LLI is in complete contardiction. It speaks volumes that you in fact need to spend so much time defending LLI on these boards. I have not yet spent a momen defending Agel because it doesn't need to be defended. It is what it is...an opportunity to get in early, work hard and have an excellent chance of not only reaching but exceeding your financial goals. I repeat my goal here is not to recruit but to alert.
posted May 07, 2005 02:57 PM
Liberty League, like any other opportunity has more failures than successes. Let's face it, as Tony will tell you, it takes work and marketing ability in order to earn money in any business.
Personally, I think Liberty League is not the strongest 2-Up $1000 per sale and up opportunity.
Being a weaker salesperson than marketer, I prefer working a system like The Profit Masters, which does the majority of the prospecting and presenting for you.
But, if you don't know marketing or your sponsor doesn't teach you effectively, you won't generate much success.
I recently developed an advanced push-button marketing training website for my Emerald Passport Customers so they can generate a similar level of success to me.
Quoting dollars spent on advertising can be misleading. Some sources will generte much higher returns. Some people in EPI spend $1200/wk in advertising. Personally, because I market successfully in both free and paid ways, I spend about $1000-$1200 a month in PPC advertising. That nets me about 15K-20K a month. But most people start with about $200-$500 in advertising expenses.
Some of the people that have joined me who have come over from Liberty League to Emerald Passport have not got good results with their marketing system, which relies heavily on classified advertising and can be much more expensive than online advertising.
Generally they fare better at Emerald Passport, but if you're dedicated, you can succeed at either program.
The key is finding a mentor who will take the time to help YOU understand marketing.
I take the time to train my people, even though that requires a substantial investment of my time. However, it pays off because people succeed and I make higher commissions on the Phase 2 Product.
posted May 07, 2005 06:52 PM
Caryn, something happened to your post that's made the layout too confusing to sort out. I suspect that your views are pretty much what they've been elsewhere on this forum.
Suffice to say that you're very frustrated by your failure in Liberty League but cannot explain why so many other people are having success.
Thus, it's just easier to blame the company, the product or the system instead of just conceding that your failure is your own responsibility. The fact that you aren't noticing this indicates to me that your MINDSET was probably the greatest factor in your lack of success.
The truth is that our BEST thinking has gotten us to where we are right now.
You. Me. Anyone else reading this.
And if you want to get somewhere else in life, you have to trade in some of your BEST thinking for a different quality of thinking.
Perhaps Albert Einstein said it best: The significant problems that we face cannot be solved by the same quality of thinking that created them. Thus, joining a new business and using new methods is only going to make a difference if you're using a different mindset.
Sadly, based on the time and effort that you've spent here in blaming LLI for your results (instead of taking PERSONAL responsibility), I think that's a good indication of why you didn't create the results you wanted.
Please note: Any work at home or home business advice as well as the opinions expressed within WAHM.com forums and mailing lists are not necessarily those of WAHM.com. Any advice given by forum or mailing list participants is not endorsed by WAHM.com. By participating in these discussions, you agree to allow WAHM.com and its parent company Maricle Media, Inc. and its affiliates to use, reproduce, display and distribute your contributions, in any medium now existing or hereafter developed. Your personal information will not be sold or used by WAHM.com. Use of email addresses posted on these boards for the purpose of sending unsolicited email is prohibited.
posted April 19, 2005 09:31 AM
They're so busy being crushed by the weight of their own failure that they cease using message boards?